EP0010 03/08/26 - Commitment & Consistency : Uncommit Like a Pro!

Just when you thought you could walk away… the low-ball strikes.

We finish Cialdini’s Commitment & Consistency — how low-balls, public pledges, and escalation turn your “yes” into a prison. Spot the traps in sales, relationships, and wars, plus defenses to break free.

Plus:
• Fallacy: Escalation of Commitment
• Persuasion Trivia
• Life Hack: The Low-Ball Escape
• Live Persuasion Duel (Grok picks)

Comments: Ever low-balled yourself into a bad commitment? Share!
Like, subscribe, notify — uncommit like a pro.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Government IT workers by day, persuasion enthusiasts, and verbal cage fighters the rest of the time.

SPEAKER_03 0:08

If you'd like to level up your persuasion game to godlike levels, grab your favorite stimulant and prepare yourself for the persuasion hit of the day. It's the Persuasion Club Podcast, and it starts now.

SPEAKER_04 0:37

And we made it.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

Glad to see you again, man. It was it was a good weekend, and thank you for sharing the notes and you know having things ready today. It's nice sometimes to just show up and hit live, you know. Uh thanks for getting everything ready today.

SPEAKER_03 0:57

Yeah, absolutely. Just plugging in uh where we can and uh try to make it easy for us here. I'm still working on uh uh cool automation stuff uh that even makes our jobs easier down the road. So but hey, I like your background today.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Thank you. Thank you very much. I'm trying a new camera program. It's free, so it might be a little bit buggy here and there, but thank you. You might actually have a background too. It looks oddly familiar.

SPEAKER_03 1:22

It looks, yeah, yeah. Right on, man. Well uh it looks consistent, which is kind of uh consistent with our theme tonight. So that's see, this book is getting to me. It's it's kind of nice, it's rubbing off on us. Uh well, I'll even um mention a couple of other things, but uh uh doing um a double episode on commitment and consistency is in itself commitment and consistency. So I thought, well, okay, that makes sense. Yeah, uh, we have done that a couple of times as we've gone through uh Childini's book. Um, you know, speaking of which, um let's make sure that we we share. Uh it's Childini. Right? Here we go.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

Yes. Oh Childini's a rush fan. He is today. He's even got he has the new and expanded edition. Oh, oh, it's making the book, oh, the book is there we go. Yeah, program.

SPEAKER_03 2:27

That's kind of the downside of the AI filters and stuff like that. The old green screen is probably tried and true, but um, you know, we we work with what we've got as tech guys, so that's uh yeah. Uh free is the best price. Free is the best price. I think we'll definitely bring that up uh during our tech talk here about half hour into the episode. Um, but I wanted to also share, Steve. Um, thanks for um I know you were gonna ask um what I did this weekend. So Kevin, what did you do this weekend? Tell me. Thanks for asking, Steve. That is so cool of you to ask. Um, well, I was hanging out with my son doing a little rail fanning, so um I think uh uh exciting this weekend.

SPEAKER_01 3:15

Did I? Were you able to fan over?

SPEAKER_03 3:17

Oh my goodness, good hit the mother load. Yeah, well, yeah, let me let me do this. I'll even share a little video I threw together here. It'll only be a minute and a half of our time, and you guys can chill um watch this. I hope you enjoyed that. That's um what uh other uh tech nerds do uh with their time too. We we go and we rail fan. So that's cool.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

I you you are the first person I've met that's like uh talked about it. Uh maybe maybe I know people that have done that before, but uh no one has talked about it before. So it's cool. Like some of those Union Pacific trains, they look so clean. Yeah, like kind of like uh like I don't even know, like presidential, like level, like they they don't look like typical cars on a train, or are they called engines or yeah, locomotives engines?

SPEAKER_03 5:52

Yeah, and there was some there was one in there. Well, the Amtrak's always look really nice, but there was also we caught what's called a heritage unit. Um, also um, I don't know. I my son might have some better footage of that, but it's actually one that's all painted up, all America, you know, flag and everything. It's very, very uh cool when you catch one in a in a train. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

It looks so classic. I I uh yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, thanks for sharing that.

SPEAKER_03 6:23

Oh, for sure, and thanks for listening. Um, we'd like to give the viewers a little extra um you know, something for what what what they paid for, right? Their cost of admission.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

So if you and also uh it came up uh if you are listening on audio only, there are other places that you can come watch what Kevin just showed on YouTube and X and Rumble. Very good.

SPEAKER_03 6:49

I think I appreciate that because we forget sometimes, and then when we're talking, sometimes we forget that people listening on audio may not actually get. Um, so for for those that actually were listening on the audio or uh only podcast, they might just uh be listening to a cool song and nothing else. But yeah, a bunch of training. Nice harmonica.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

Uh yeah, it was classic.

SPEAKER_03 7:12

Yeah. Well, we don't want to take up too much of everybody's time. We ought to go ahead and get into the show. So let's go ahead. Let's do it. So yes. Uh as we mentioned earlier in the show, the the topic is commitment and consistency. Um, I'll go ahead and start us off and then we'll just kind of dialogue back and forth here, Steve. Um, but the core principle um essentially behind commitment and consistency um is that commitments escalate through techniques like lowballing and public written promises, creating even stronger consistency pressure. So let's talk a little bit about that. Um have you ever found yourself having made uh a commitment, having wished that you had not made that commitment, but kept up with that um for the sake of making sure that people didn't think that you were a flake or a bozo.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

Yeah, exactly. I was just laughing because I'm thinking of so many times I've committed to do something and either the day of or the day before when I really remember what what needs to happen the next day. There's yeah, much reg much regret. Why did I do that?

SPEAKER_03 8:42

Yeah, um, and as one gets older, um, one learns, um, and eventually uh one decides that maybe they won't make as many commitments as they once uh did, at least not be as quick with them. But uh the reason the reason that uh this kind of thing works though is that it's that whole thing that we talked about last week with the sunk cost principle, right? Um so that social image that we all have that we want to keep. We don't want people looking at us uh poorly. And so we we will do everything that we can um to make sure that we don't come off as a flake. Um, and that includes even doing things even though we know that they're not right, or that that maybe new information has shown you that that wasn't a thing. Or maybe you just committed because you didn't think someone was gonna hold you to it.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

Yeah. Uh there've been times where even committing just to get out of the moment, you know, like okay, uh let me say yes, I'll come up with an excuse later to not go to that event or do whatever. And then it it gets too late to make an excuse and you feel guilty, so you just end up doing it, and then you know, it's honestly it turns out okay a lot of the time, but there are times where it's like I d I would have been better off staying home and petting my cats.

SPEAKER_03 10:20

That's default always the right answer. Um but uh yeah. Um here's here's an example of of that. Um going and we'll talk about this a little bit later on when we get into some slides, but uh the low ball technique um is is a really good example of um this particular uh tactic. So uh going in and buying a a car and uh you get an an initial price from the the salesman, right? And at that point you're like, oh, you know, um, you know, that that sounds like a deal, I'll go ahead and take it. But then you find out about the add-ons and all of these other things that uh all of a sudden jack up the thing and so suddenly you're you're looking at more than what you intended to spend, but you've already committed to the initial amount. So it's kind of like what what point then do you say, well that's not what you originally said, you know. So a lot of people will will just accept the new you know amount. Or maybe even they don't want uh recognize or looked at as being inconsistent. It's like you've already committed to buying the car.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

Yeah, they'll get you. You gotta watch out.

SPEAKER_03 11:35

Those damn car dealers. We were we've been talking about that a lot on this show, I realize. Um, and it makes me wonder if maybe like the epitome of uh persuasion is in the um the used car salesman or something. New car salesman.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

I'm sorry to say well, you know, they fight a they fight an uphill battle because everybody knows you're a little bit greasy and you're getting a commission, so you just kind of want to push a sale at some point, and uh it never feels like they're listening. So, you know, they fight an uphill battle. So, you know, for them to sell anything, uh it's pretty good, you know, good job.

SPEAKER_03 12:15

If you can be a good car salesman, you're good or just any kind of salesman, I suppose, but yeah. Um how how some people sleep with themselves, you know, or sleep at night, I don't know, but they usually drink a lot, probably as well.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

You would have to.

SPEAKER_03 12:34

You would have to. Yeah. Um, so then uh let's see, here's the example. We talked about this the low car, uh low-ball car sales, you agree to low price, then they add fees, and then hazing rituals that build loyalty through escalating commitments is another um example.

SPEAKER_01 12:54

Um I don't know what they mean by hazing rituals, but I think it's uh usually like I want to say that might have something to do with um small uh small commitments um that are just in the book, yeah, he they talk about they talk about the uh it's like the Tonga tribe and with their kids, like they get to a certain age and they put them through these trials and how like uh fraternities at colleges kind of act uh in a similar way where they put people through trials before they let them or accept them into their fraternity, and they can call that hazing. Whereas, you know, you have to be like out in the cold with you know barely any clothes on and people, you know, shooting paintballs at you, and you know, you have to like get through like this crazy stuff. Some of it's really intense.

SPEAKER_03 13:52

But uh so then um it says here the the ri hazing rituals build loyalty through escalating commitments. So it sounds to me like each commitment gets a little bit more, but like each thing that they ask you to do is a little bit more than before.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

Yeah, they escalate it really fast. But by the time I mean if you survive something like that, uh you definitely feel more committed, but uh and you feel like you've earned the right to be committed in a way. So yeah, interesting. It is interesting. Being hazed is uh very controversial, but it happens.

SPEAKER_03 14:32

Yeah, it does happen. I know that it happened a lot in uh my high school. I went to two different high schools over four years, and uh everybody had to do whatever the hazing was, whether it's uh having your head dunked in the toilet or having to kiss a rock, you know. Um yeah, the kissing the rock one was great because you knew people pissed on that rock, you know. It's like that's gross. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Uh well, I digress. Um tactics, tactics, tactics. Uh low ball offers um understate costs than reveals. So what you want to do is when uh you're dealing with somebody who gives you an offer, uh a good tactic is to get it in writing because that that's a commitment. Something in writing is a commitment. So we kind of talked a little bit about that last week. Um, how the not only does uh the the act of writing commit something to our memory, but it also acts uh as a form of commitment between you and the person that you're dealing with. So um and then the defense to that is that um being able to spot that low ball early. So um basically it says here reframe every new deal as so every every thing should be reframed as a new deal. So you get one offer, don't think about the last offer, don't think about the next offer, think about this offer, this deal, this thing as if it were its own deal. Would you take it? Because a lot of the tactics with uh the lowball technique is to continue and to wear you down. Um but I just said that's another process.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

I like the I like the quote uh the walk away without guilt. Yes, yeah. I mean that that that's a good like thing to keep in mind of like the new deal and making sure that you feel okay walking away. Like take care of yourself.

SPEAKER_03 16:45

I agree with that um in the sense too that you don't have to beat yourself up if something looks bad and it feels bad, if your stomach is telling you that it's bad or your heart is telling you that it's bad, it is probably bad. And you don't you don't have to feel guilty. Um, even if it makes you look bad, uh it who who gives a shit? You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

Trust your gut, it's a good way to go.

SPEAKER_03 17:12

Yeah, so um I think that that's part of uh developing that thicker skin and being able to to spot not necessarily a scam, you know. We talk about ethics and persuasion, and we teach and we're trying to teach persuasion, knowing that some people could use this for bad, you know, but they could also use it for a lot of good, you know. So let's go ahead and check out our video here.

SPEAKER_05 17:40

I saw one once they could do sign language. Yeah, I saw that one. Uh cocoa.

SPEAKER_02 17:46

Yeah, cocoa. Right, cocoa. Jump some running.

SPEAKER_06 17:55

What's going on here?

SPEAKER_05 17:56

You didn't agree to anything, did you? No, we both jumped some monkey.

SPEAKER_06 18:03

The high five is a very grease monkey.

SPEAKER_02 18:06

What did I tell you about that?

SPEAKER_06 18:08

I'm sorry, but the high five is just so stupid.

SPEAKER_02 18:12

Yeah, if you're late, we're through.

SPEAKER_06 18:13

Fine. We're through.

SPEAKER_02 18:14

Oh, so you're late.

SPEAKER_06 18:21

Take a little bit of RB.

SPEAKER_02 18:23

Hey, what do you finish this up?

SPEAKER_06 18:26

Did you two break up?

SPEAKER_02 18:27

That's just what a couple of things, uh, rust popping. Rust put in, transport charge, storage, stove charge, additional over charge. Finder today. Yeah, that's right. And uh four minutes. Please, please. I gotta start it.

SPEAKER_05 18:54

You gotta get back down to the deal of putty is screwing me on this car, which is yellow now. You gotta get back together with putty so I can make this deal.

SPEAKER_06 19:06

You know, just that you cared enough to call me so much, Jim.

SPEAKER_05 19:11

You gotta get back together anyway. It's thousands of dollars.

SPEAKER_06 19:14

I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 19:15

Come on, then you don't have to see him again in my 15,000 mile check.

SPEAKER_06 19:19

Will you pay my camera out there?

SPEAKER_05 19:21

Fine.

SPEAKER_06 19:21

And I didn't like that roast beef, so how about some lunch?

SPEAKER_05 19:25

Lunch?

SPEAKER_06 19:25

I'll hang this phone up right now.

SPEAKER_05 19:39

What do I have to do to put you two in a relationship today? All right, Elaine, David. I believe we have a deal here in principle. RB's no more than once a month, and in exchange, Elaine comes to your softball game and doesn't read a book.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

I can live with that.

SPEAKER_05 20:01

So you're back together? All right, uh, right, now let's get back to my deal. That's a rip-off, isn't it, David? Oh, we don't even know what it is.

SPEAKER_02 20:15

Insider's deal.

SPEAKER_03 20:26

All right, credit where credit is due. That's from the Seinfeld channel on YouTube. So it's exactly uh classic pretty much. Yeah, it's exactly what's going on. Uh they don't know all the extras and stuff like that. It's just crap. They're just like making all kinds of extra money, you know, on the car deal at that point.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

So uh like in that show, they're trying to be funny, but they're they're kind of also very accurate to how it how it works. The people are so assumptive that like they're like, okay, and this will be another 300, so check that box. You're like, wait, what? Uh wait. I didn't even know I needed that.

SPEAKER_03 21:06

Yeah, I like it where we don't even know what it is. And the Rust code, we don't even know what it is. I was looking for other videos that would help us illustrate how this lowball technique thing works. Was not having much luck with that. So I thought the best thing to do is maybe we just make our own.

SPEAKER_01 21:25

Make our own uh lowball uh video.

SPEAKER_03 21:28

Yeah, yeah. So this will be a clip video when we when we go uh at some point uh to post this. So the lowball technique. What can we say about that? Well, uh the hook hook switch stick means the bait with a lower offer and then change to worse terms and then trap via commitment. So I think that the explanation on that one we were talking about the car, uh when you start out with, they'll come in and they'll say, Hey, um you know, you can get the car for this price. And then afterwards, after you've said, yeah, that's a really good price. I like that. I'll buy the car at that price. Um, then they're like, oh, so did you want tires on the car? Oh, those are extra. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 22:18

Uh yeah, those uh I feel like uh sometimes a good one is uh like hey, uh I'm selling some magazines here raising money for uh a trip I'm taking to South America to help out, you know, help out people in areas where you know uh my services of maybe helping them build a home. So uh would you like to sign up for you know uh just one copy? Just one copy for three dollars and um seems safe enough, right? Any magazine you want, yes. The it if you went to Safeway, it would be six dollars. So I'll get you anything for three dollars.

SPEAKER_03 22:59

So you're already saving money, right? Yeah, and it's saving money.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

Yeah, and then so you know what would you would you do three copies for you know six dollars? And uh, you know, that's just the price of one. So then you you could buy three and then I could have more fun in South America. I could bring more home for my family, right?

SPEAKER_03 23:26

Yeah, yeah, you go have fun in South America, I'll keep my money. But it is true that is how they they do it. It is that it's um the the small commitment, so a low ball. So that's the thing to watch out for, and then the terms change afterwards, right? So something about that that started out is just a three dollar.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

Yeah, well, by it's a subscription. If you yeah, you now that you've signed the line, it is a monthly, it's one a month, so you'll be paying three dollars a month now for the rest of your life.

SPEAKER_03 24:02

Right on. So um after the terms change, then you get uh the the hidden costs essentially. So what started out is something um as um small as um say um the car. We were talking about the car being, you know, like okay, a car is twenty thousand dollars, but then when you get the hidden costs and the add-on fees and the taxes and the delivery and stuff like that, you're paying like another two thousand dollars, you know.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

So yeah, yeah. Then what's your interest rate? Don't forget that.

SPEAKER_03 24:34

Yeah, yeah. So that $19,000, $20,000 car, whatever that you start out with, uh suddenly, you know, $30,000 car, right?

SPEAKER_01 24:43

Yeah, exactly. Oh, you don't have great credit. Oh, you didn't know that you needed to own a home for 20 years before your credit's okay.

unknown 24:51

No, I'm kidding.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

You can have good credit at a young age.

SPEAKER_03 24:56

It's just yeah, well, it's kind of funny because uh the whole credit thing is all about, you know, um, such a game. You know, it's like you have to have good credit to get credit, and then when you get good credit and then you start to pay stuff off on time, then they don't like that. Oh hell no.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

So yeah, it's a it is a game, definitely uh something you it it took me a long time to figure out how to not get burned, how to be smart, also play the game a little bit. It's uh it's a game for sure.

SPEAKER_03 25:26

It is absolutely a game, isn't it? Yeah, the only winning move is not to play.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

Yeah, and that's and that's tough.

SPEAKER_03 25:34

Yeah, that it is they make it tough, they'd make it tough when you decide that kind of got to in some ways, yeah. Um, so the whole thing is basically about exploiting the psychology, um uh trying to make it feel like it backing out of the deal is impossible, um, because you don't want to be looked at as being inconsistent with your initial yes. So many people will uh agree to the add-ons. Not everybody will, um, but a lot of people do because it's something that um is just inherently built into us not to look like we are not consistent with ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

So or like think that, like, oh well, what you can't afford these extra add-ons, you know.

SPEAKER_03 26:21

Yeah, right. You don't want to be you don't want to be embarrassed, right? I like it when when uh you're talking like low amounts, you know, like a few dollars or something like that. And everybody inherently will always come back to it's just the price of a latte, uh, just the price of a cup of coffee. It's like don't take my damn cup of coffee away from me, man. Yeah, you know, start making coffee at home. Yeah. Um, look at our next slide here. The irresistible hook. So all that basically means is they dangle a deal that's too good to be true in front of you to get that first yes. Then they present an attractive, undervalued offer up front. Like a this this is a real good example, gym memberships. Gym memberships go for you know, I think low about $40 a month or something like that. And they can get as high as I don't know, I wouldn't know. Maybe like maybe a hundred. Maybe a hundred bucks, yeah. Um, you know, so like when you get an offer of a month for ten bucks or something like that, you're almost a fool not to do it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

Yeah, yeah, and then they'll waive the sign-up fee, which is like, what does that even mean? Another thousand dollars, right? Putting my name in your system. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 27:46

Exactly. The the ten dollar a month thing, of course, is just to draw signups, get people to sign up, and then later on they come along and um uh after they've got your buy-in and after they've got you all excited and everything like that. Um, especially if it's a limited time offer, people feel even better if they are taking advantage of something that might be what is it, scarcity, as we talked about. Um, so that limited time offer makes the buyer commit to that thing emotionally. Um once you got that emotional buy-in, it's you got 'em. You got them hooked. So it's that foot in the door technique I think we talked about last week.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

So yeah. Yeah. Or can we put a sign in your yard? Oh yes. Well, will you also sign this petition? Okay. You know, it's like uh they'll they'll get you bought in.

SPEAKER_03 28:37

Yeah, promotional. Another technique along with that is sometimes, um, as we mentioned before, um, commitments are very uh much part of the game. So getting a verbal commitment on something is usually um probably good enough, but if you can take it a step further and get a written commitment to something, then that's even better. So that small commitment that you're talking about. Um, I'm trying to think of what the example in the book was, but essentially um, I think it was trying to get people to um sign up and uh be part of a class of some kind. And when people made the commitment and then were asked to sign that commitment, then 90% of the people showed up because they had actually signed and made the commitment that way. Whereas if they didn't sign, the numbers were a lot lower.

SPEAKER_01 29:39

So yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, it's like you put your name on paper that you're gonna go. So there's this like mental total attachment to going.

SPEAKER_03 29:53

And I think about that, um, it's also true in and back to I know we keep you utilizing this example with the car dealerships, but oftentimes like they will do that, they'll come and they'll they'll have the initial offer, and you may not sign it, but you might initial it. Like I and it's like I initial that offer as a way of saying I accept that offer. And um that that is even though you don't you're you've not really signed the papers in full yet, just doing that in the act of like getting your initials and stuff like that is a form of commitment and locks you into that. So all right, and then on to this uh the sneaky switch. So this is those extra fees that we're like that we got in the Seinfeld episode, the rust proofing uh the finder's fee. It was on the lot. Um, exactly. Yeah, yeah, and yeah, the sneaky switch. Uh basically what that means is uh you flip to the worst deal after the initial agreement. So it's kind of a the bait and switch. And I don't know why um this doesn't get caught more, but I think that it you have to be able to uh prove intent, you know. So um a lot of times people who use the sneaky switch technique might do so in a way that's accidental, like um, oh, you know, we we sent the papers on through, and then the the loan department caught that we didn't include the the extra thing here that we had to include. They blame the loan department, you know, but it's like okay, you know. Same thing happens, phone plans. You start off with a phone plan that goes from fifty dollars to 70, and then you know, it's like what the hell?

SPEAKER_01 31:50

You know, it's like I signed up for there's uh there's a $30 data charge that we automatically add no matter what. So you know, you didn't know that.

SPEAKER_03 32:01

I just got the bill for the new fast internet that I've been um talking about, and yeah, it's like okay. Uh I I signed up, it was supposed to be um $85 a month, and I think there was like another ten dollars for the um um extra router, whatever the are they charging you for equipment rental? Um no, uh uh not for well for one thing because you get uh your initial router modem with the uh the service, but then if you want an extender, like um extend it to your other parts of your house, then that's an extra ten bucks. Uh I didn't mind doing that, but somehow my eighty-five dollars plus ten dollars added up to $135. So I'm gonna have to go and check that one out, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:51

Oh, so did they have like hidden services and ID or something? No, I don't know, but that sounds not cool. Yeah, but so talk about your sneaky switch though. So I have to go check that one out. You know, I've already committed now.

SPEAKER_01 33:09

Well, yeah, you you say shut off my old service. Yeah, you're kind of stuck with them for the moment.

SPEAKER_03 33:16

Yeah, dude. Boy, they get you one way or the other. Well, um the commitment trap. It's a trap. All right, sorry, just had to do that. The advertising, yeah, he's the best, man. Uh good. What this essentially means, the commitment trap means that the yes locks you into following through. So once you say yes, your brain demands consistency. So you agreed to a project, your brain insists on finishing despite those issues. Reversing feels like failure. So this is why it works is that whenever you reverse out of a commitment, it feels like failure. Backing out of a pledge feels like breaking your word. Ties you to social self-image pressure, and friends see your public yes as pressure to not look flaky. So that's good stuff. Uh image is nice. Thank you. Um, and I know I'm just uh I don't want to feel like I'm just talking here, so we'll talk um a little bit more about this slide here. So uh change terms, uh, the mind conflict, internal unease from deal changes. You ever had that happen to you where somebody alters the deal, so to speak?

SPEAKER_01 34:34

Yeah, or it's not as sweet as you might have thought it was. It's something like Amazon clothing. If you've ever purchased anything, clothing on Amazon, you can read any all the technical details, check the fabric, make sure it's not trash. But when you get it, it's just like this like stretchy, super like uh shiny material, and it's it's like nothing like the photos. It's like I feel I feel like I've been scammed, and and you know, you thought that you were getting a good deal on a decent looking shirt, and it's actually kind of blurry, and the quality is really low. I feel like that's a very common thing for me where it's like I feel like the deal changed somehow.

SPEAKER_03 35:22

Like this isn't what I yeah, this isn't what I agreed to, man. Yeah, and yet your brain just kind of has to justify uh it's you know, kind of the little cognitive dissonance there and just let it go or not, you know.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

So it depends on how it's like is it worth returning? Uh you know, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 35:42

Yeah, yeah. Um, it depends on now to me. That feels a lot like um almost intentional uh bait and switch tactics there too. So you see one thing and think that's what you're getting, and then you get something else. Yeah, there's also the um the part about the person who's buying that that may not want to admit that they got uh scammed. Did you ever hear about that? Um there was a waitress who had won a prize on a radio show, I think. Or no, maybe it was um it was at the restaurant that she worked for, and the um boss was offering a new car for um um the employee who had the best performance or something like that. And okay, um, in the end, uh she thought that she was going to be getting a real car, but it was just a toy car. It was never very clear in the contest that she was actually just doing all this stuff to win um this toy car. She'd be so mad. I'd like she was mad. I think she sued on that one. Um, but that's a true story. Um, I may have not been doing it complete justice. We'll have to look that up um on the after show and I can read that.

SPEAKER_01 36:55

Yeah, dude. I hope I hope if she sued, I hope she got justice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:01

The the thing about uh that is people fighting for themselves um doesn't always happen. There's a strong number of people out there that just won't put in the effort, and so um, and again, it's the psychological piece to it if they don't want to be seen as stupid uh because they somehow got s suckered into a scam, um they may just deal with it.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

Sometimes it's hard to admit that maybe it just was a not a good deal and you shouldn't have done it. Some people's pride will stop them from being able to do that.

SPEAKER_03 37:38

I would say that there's uh an equal amount of pride and then maybe just laziness. It really kind of yeah. Yeah. Uh we got a couple more slides here. So we talked a little bit about this one last week, the sunk cost fallacy. Sunk costs basically means past investments that force you to keep going. These could be anything like um anything from a big contract um that you signed. I think I mentioned last week the software contract that I was working with as a project manager years ago, basically vaporware that was no good, and we either needed to pay up some more money so that we could finish it or cut our losses. And uh that's very difficult because a lot of people who were involved in making that decision did not want to admit that they had chosen a company that um had essentially sold them a bill of goods. And so rather than admit that, they were willing to give the company even more money to sell them a bill of goods. So that's crazy. Yeah, um I mean I know it happens, but that's crazy. Right. It's a lot of what happens, especially in uh I've seen it happen more in government where um people uh use a lot of group think to make decisions. Um there's no one person who will make a decision um on who they award a contract to. It's a bunch of people, and they'll make that choice. And so then when something goes south with that, it's like, oh, you know, the the group, nobody in the group wants to say, hey, we we kind of screwed up here, you know, and it's so the the group decides let's spend more. So and I've seen it happen time and time again.

SPEAKER_01 39:19

So that's unfortunately too common.

SPEAKER_03 39:24

We also talked a a bit about how this is even true in in relationships, people who you know been in in a committed relationship for a long time, it's not working out, not going well. Um, and because they've done so for so long, um they continue to do that.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

So um sometimes the cost doesn't have to only be monetary.

SPEAKER_03 39:51

Can be very much uh an emotional. Um yeah. So um as again, I think I mentioned last week that uh I would not recommend anybody that just uh uh is having any kind of relationship problems to just jump out of a relationship just because we are telling you uh to be uh uh to break your commitments uh that are uh not lasting or whatever. Uh I'm uh I'm being very careful making sure that we don't pass on bad advice here. So if there's a chance that your relationship can be saved, if you're having a bad relationship, then certainly you want to make uh everything that you can uh ever do everything you can to do to save that.

SPEAKER_01 40:32

But if there is no hope, there's so much that I wanted to say right there that would was just gonna ruin everything. So oh man, but ruin it all.

SPEAKER_03 40:41

No, no, no, I just uh yeah, okay. Um well it goes along with this. I've come this far, so if I've come this far, might as well go a little further. So it overrides the rational exit. Sometimes we ignore better options just because of the time that we've already invested. Um, it's common in sales, car add-ons and stuff like that. We talked about that. They add the warranty after the test drive, hype feels invested. So um, you ever um see car dealerships that offer you to take the car home? Keep it for a day, try it out, show it to your neighbors. That's so weird.

SPEAKER_01 41:20

Yeah, yeah. That's that's crazy. Like I uh does is did that like maybe actually work? I don't know. Um, but I think that the more damage, like yeah, well, uh yeah, that's a good question.

SPEAKER_03 41:38

But I think the wet uh the reason that they do that is that the longer that you have the car, the more emotionally um invested you are in it. So um I think that actually does work. It's a tactic that that can work. I've never actually taken advantage of that, but I've I've had it offered to me a lot of times. Yeah, right. Um Okay. Um I think this is the last slide here, I think. Let's see. Um advancing. There we go. Advance. How to escape. The low ball, yes, advance, advance. So this how do you break free of the low ball trap? I mean, any thoughts come to mind?

SPEAKER_01 42:21

Oh, and without without what's on the without what I can see, I would say be slow to commit.

SPEAKER_03 42:31

Be slow to commit. I think that's one of the many ways.

SPEAKER_01 42:35

Many ways be slow to commit.

SPEAKER_03 42:37

Um a lot of times, um, yeah, the the um notes that I have here um say spot it early and break the chain. So being slow to commit is a way that can help you to spot those kinds of tactics that are being used on you. So um I like that one, Stephen. It actually wasn't in the notes, but I think it makes a lot of sense. So when you're being asked to commit to something, they put the pressure on you, don't they?

SPEAKER_01 43:07

It's like here in the moment, you you can say yes, right? Like you'll say yes, right?

SPEAKER_03 43:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

Whoa, whoa, whoa, hey.

SPEAKER_03 43:14

And maybe even make you feel foolish for not doing it. It's too good of a deal, you know. You're how could you turn your back? Yeah. So that's another way uh that they could do it. Um, so noticing an undervalued offer is a good red flag. So if if there's a deal that's too good to be true, then that's a red flag. It almost always is going to be too too good to be true. Um, the other thing we we also mentioned was treating changes as new deals. Um, walk away. It's all right to walk away.

SPEAKER_01 43:54

You walk out of a bad movie, uh so hard to do, it's so hard to do. Do but you should. You should, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:03

I don't know. Uh, I have to tell the story. I'm kind of curious if you've ever uh also uh if you would name any movies that you've walked out on. Um let me think.

SPEAKER_01 44:15

Uh I'll think about it. I can't think of one right away.

SPEAKER_03 44:18

Okay, I'll I'll tell you one that I walked out on, and I can't believe in a way that I did it, but I just it was so stupid. But uh A Million Ways to Die in the West, that Seth McFarland movie. I don't know if you remember that one, or was it a thousand ways or a million ways?

SPEAKER_01 44:35

But uh it was yeah. I can't say I've watched that whole thing through.

SPEAKER_03 44:40

Oh my goodness, yeah. It was like 30, 40 minutes into it, and nah, now we're done. And I like Seth McFarlane, but anyway, I digress again as usual. So and another thing, oops, damn it, I advanced the slide again, didn't mean to. Uh, but another thing that you can do is to escape the trap is to demand full details up front. So just ask for all the fees before you say yes to any sales. Yeah, it'll help you out.

SPEAKER_01 45:08

Yeah, exactly. Like what what's the end, what's my end cost gonna be here because uh things are adding up and I this the math isn't mathing, uh something like that.

SPEAKER_03 45:19

Exactly. It's sometimes um it feels like maybe uh and I've had this happen to me before where I think to myself, that am I stupid? Am I not getting this? And because I feel stupid um and I don't want to ask any questions, I'll remain silent and then kind of re-evaluate later what what happened. But that's maybe even a tactic is uh if you they make you feel like you're and you're questioning yourself, um, and questioning your your own judgment on something, then that would even be another another tactic.

SPEAKER_01 45:57

So you are the you are your best defense, your your gut is your best defense. So you know, practice up, make sure your gut is strong.

SPEAKER_03 46:08

Right on. Well, we'll uh turn that into a um clip video here uh sometime. Other people can watch it, but um we we got through that segment here. Uh we also um have a very close tie-in, once again, to our logical argument fallacies. I don't know what's playing for you on your end, Steven, but for me the clips aren't showing all the way and I'm not hearing stuff. How's it working for you?

SPEAKER_01 46:47

That one was like, yeah, it was like uh dark skies.

SPEAKER_03 46:53

The the logical argument fallacy that goes with this one um is called the escalation of commitment. All right, so escalation of commitment is a logical argument fallacy that means that you keep investing in failure due to the past. So you keep investing in a failing choice. Sound familiar, just what we were just talking about. Add more money to the losing stock, keep throwing good after bad, and then just because you've already put so much in you keep doing it, and it just perpetuates and you just keep spending more. You've heard of the uh the term uh a money pit. So you buy a house and you you put some money into it, and then you find some other stuff that's wrong and keep throwing money into it.

SPEAKER_01 47:52

And was the money pit house? Yeah, the money pit in Oregon or was it?

SPEAKER_03 47:58

I believe I don't know about yeah, I don't know about the house, but I think some of it was filmed in Lane County. Um, maybe even um I want to say at the Valley River Center Mall.

SPEAKER_01 48:11

I was gonna say there was a there's a show that I watched as like a reality TV show, but there was this guy that was causing a lot of trouble and had a lot of problems with relationships, but one of his buddies kept giving him money to keep living and going to parties and like traveling. And this guy was kind of a loser, but had a buddy that just kept investing money in him, like, oh, he'll get me back someday. Ended up owing this guy tens of thousands of dollars, but like the guy's never gonna collect. But it it's like this escalation of commitment, like, oh, you've helped a buddy, and this can happen to a lot of people where you've helped someone in your life and they keep coming back and they keep needing your help, and they never really do anything to like improve their they're always in the same really bad situation. So I feel like that's also an escalation of commitment that can be really uh draining on people emotionally and with your relationships in life.

SPEAKER_03 49:11

So those friends that are kind of like a a suck on you in a way.

SPEAKER_01 49:17

Yeah, or family. But yeah, it's a lot of times it's like friends and or family.

SPEAKER_03 49:23

Yeah. And then because you've um had some investment into that person or something like that, and and you just kind of like almost a little stuck.

SPEAKER_01 49:34

Instead of telling them, like, too bad, go get a job, you just keep helping them. Yeah. Uh you know, sometimes people need to feel the feel some consequences in order for things to kind of change and become real. So it was just a thought.

SPEAKER_03 49:50

Yeah, that reminds me of a funny story, and um I I wish that I could do it justice, but my sister, um she um lives in a small uh community and goes to a small church, and there was a couple with uh at their church um that eventually when when you become um connected with this couple, you're you're connected, you're you're hooked in, and you're never gonna escape them. Um and uh she would tell me these stories, these weird stories, and they were even kind of like uh the the wife in the story was even kind of a stalker, kind of stalker-ish kind of person, and would even do like these kind of weird things, like purposefully be put herself in a situation where she was acting like her car was broken down on the side of the road so that she could call people that she knew to come and and help her deal with her car, even though there was nothing really going on with it, she was just weird. Yeah, it sounds like a but you know what the point of that story was that these weird friends would always be asking, you know, can you help us with this? Can you help us with that? And because they were so vested and committed into you know, because every single time, every little thing this person asked for would get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger, you know. And so you're right, those escalations of commitment can even happen with people who suck the living shit out of you, you know.

SPEAKER_01 51:23

Yeah, crazy. I'm related to two of them. I I I I have two relatives uh that I don't really talk to them anymore, but right, you just kind of can't do that. Yeah, because again, like you said earlier, the only way to win is to not play. So it gets it gets like that in in some situations in life. But right, and that's sad, but that's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 51:49

It totally is, it very much is, and it's um I'm glad that we actually kind of got to talk a little bit about that because so much of our focus has been on things like money and uh some some forms of relationships, but that was kind of like a different type of um commitment consistency kind of thing when you talk about the kind of people who are draining on your life. So yeah. To finish and wrap this up, then the idea uh and the the escape from this is just because you've already put so much in doesn't mean that you have to justify spending more. Um even if logic says stop, the numbers might say quit, but your mind for some reason says continue. So it's wrestling with that and and sorting that out in your own mind. So um actually we have a couple more slides along with this particular topic. Why why can't we stop? So why can't we stop with the bad commitment or the the friends that drain us? Why can't we stop?

SPEAKER_01 52:54

That's a good question. And uh usually some sort of guilt or afraid of afraid of saying I I messed up or went too far.

SPEAKER_03 53:04

I I would say that guilt is probably I mean Well, because usually um if it would involve some kind of a confrontation, wouldn't it? So you would actually have to address the reason why, you know, so um rather than address it. So again, that kind of goes back to the laziness aspect of it. Sometimes rather than deal with things head on, we still accept it.

SPEAKER_01 53:30

I'm big, I'm okay with confrontation as long as it's not just like aggressive, uh unwarranted. But like, you know, if there's something to be talked about, definitely I'm yeah, I I'm I'm all for bringing up things that might be a little awkward, but it's good to be talking about.

SPEAKER_03 53:49

I have uh a tough time with confrontation too. I've gotten a little bit better with it over the years, but it's usually I'm pretty passive as a person, so um I I try to avoid conflict when I can. Um sometimes people um do better and thrive in conflict. Um address issues head on and get through the BS.

SPEAKER_01 54:12

There's something to address. I I feel like there are people that just love conflict so much that they just look for it. I am not that way. I do seek out I'm not seeking it out, but if it's there, uh it's in my head, I'm like, yes, I do love to uh what do you call it, just uh wait as long as I possibly can to procrastinate. I love to procrastinate in general. Yeah, that's me. There comes a time where you have to hit some things up front or you know, it will be worse later. Something like like debt, you know. Like debt with interest, uh you do not want to ignore.

SPEAKER_03 54:56

You don't want to do yeah, it'll always catch up. Well, uh so sunk costs uh again can affect that if you've already done uh and spent a bunch of money on something. And I suppose you might say it's I've already you know, I can't quit. Um so just keep throwing the that into it. But uh more of it is cognitive dissonance, really. Um basically reconciling that with yourself. So quitting feels like admitting that I was wrong. So a lot of times sticking with like uh for example, a bad job because some people might uh not want to admit that they made a bad choice. Nobody wants to be wrong. Nobody wants to be wrong. Um and lastly, brain chooses denial over looking stupid, deny fail denying failures um science to save face. We talked a little bit about this one last week. We've seen this all the time. Um, even in on a larger scale, governments getting involved in wars that just drag on for years. They justify that because they've already put in so much into it. Uh bad startups that keep burning cash or toxic relationships again, like we just talked about. This is the breaking free. How do you do it? How do you stop? So one of the suggestions here is setting a kill criteria. What would be the thing? Like what what would be the line where you would have to, you know, what would have to happen before you would actually say hey, you know?

SPEAKER_01 56:27

Like having a safe word.

SPEAKER_03 56:28

Yeah, kind of like that. Yeah, if you ever go and you do a deal like uh going to a car dealership with your wife, you probably do need a safe word, right? Yeah. What's our safe word for let's get the hell out of here?

SPEAKER_01 56:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:45

But uh yeah, um I guess that knowing what your limitations are um before going in is a great way of making sure that you don't do anything that's outside of that. If you if you don't think about it before going in, um that could be detrimental. Um it's always good to have a plan, especially if you have a an opportunity to plan in any kind of negotiation and kind of know what you know what will you what things will you accept? What deals will you walk away from? Like the gambler, right? Know when to hold them. No when to fold them. And then um asking the question, would I do this again today? So new deal comes along, altered deal, whatever uh comes along, ask yourself paying no attention to the previous deal, would I do this today? Ignoring the sunk costs. Just pay no attention to sunk costs, but just don't even think about sunk costs when you're making a decision. That doesn't even factor into the equation.

SPEAKER_01 57:52

Especially if you haven't signed yet.

SPEAKER_03 57:54

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 57:55

You've lost you've lost nothing.

SPEAKER_03 57:57

Right. Your pride, who cares, you know, for something that you may never see.

SPEAKER_01 58:05

Right. It comes back, like you know, like like the grass outside. You mow it, it comes back, you know.

SPEAKER_03 58:13

Yeah, for sure. That's the end of uh the fallacy here, but we do have another video to show off here, so let's check this out.

SPEAKER_04 58:22

When the deal is altered, Leia and the Wookiee must never again leave this city. It was never a condition of our arrangement, nor was giving harm to this bounty hunter. I have altered the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further. This deal's getting worse all the time. Furthermore, I wish you to wear this dress and bonnet.

SPEAKER_05 58:41

This was never a condition of our arrangement.

SPEAKER_04 58:42

I have altered the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further. This deal's getting worse all the time. Here is a unicycle. You will ride it wherever you go. I'm never riding the fing unicycle. I have altered the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further. This deal is getting worse all the time! Also, you are to wear these clown shoes and refer to yourself as Mary. You man, I'm not doing it! I have altered the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further.

SPEAKER_05 59:11

This deal It's very fair, and I'm happy to be a part of it.

SPEAKER_01 59:27

Gosh.

SPEAKER_03 59:29

I hope that helps you all out. Um now you all understand clearly escalation of commitment uh works, right? Clear as day. So uh, you know, we'll come back to that. I'm sure as time goes on, we'll talk about um that in further detail. But I think we've covered it pretty well for tonight, and now I'm feeling super ready for yeah. Well, are you ready, Steven? I'd um I think I'm ready to go ahead and uh give it a shot here. Let's do it. Okay. Um who went first last week?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:20

This one is multiple choice in the book, the toy study, kids stuck with what? A a better toy, B, the lame toy after commitment, or C, no toy. Oh, say no toy. Okay, no toy is your final answer. Um, yeah, I'm gonna make I'm gonna make that my final answer. It is the answer is the lame toy after commitment. So it was actually the lame toy.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:54

They stuck with the lame toy.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:56

Um yeah, so that they were told that the toy, this specific toy, was not to be played with. Yeah. You know, and eventually they ignored it. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:07

They wound up playing with other toys. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. Okay, I knew that. Why didn't I do that right? Okay, well, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:17

Next one. It's a true or false question. What we were talking about earlier with with hazing rituals, the hazing uses escalating commitments for loyalty. True or false?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:29

That is true. Ding ding ding ding ding. All right.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:33

That is correct. Okay. Number three. Good job, Kevin. Thanks. Uh, this one is fill in the blank. Public commitments make backing out socially what?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:45

I want to say the word awkward, but I don't know if that's the right word.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:50

It's in the ballpark, but it makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:52

It's in the ballpark, yeah. It's I know that's not the right word. Um makes you feel socially um makes backing out socially unacceptable. No, I'm gonna go ahead and take a golf.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:06

Oh. Okay. Because I just don't have it. The answer is cost, like socially costly or expensive. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:19

It'll cost yeah, that's kind of I I I get that. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:24

That's a tough okay. So the best defense against a low ball, this one's multiple choice. Best defense against low ball, a ignore changes, b demand full details up front. Or C double down.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:39

B.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:40

Ding ding ding ding ding ding ding. Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:44

All right, demand those full details up front.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:49

That's yep. We just got done talking about that, so that one was easy, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:56

Okay. Uh let's see. The I I have a fifth question. Are you good with that? Hit me with it. Yeah. Okay. So uh, what is the initiation ceremony called that fraternities and the Tonga tribe uh put their initiates through before accepting them?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:18

Oh, well, that was an easy one too, because we just got done talking about hazing. Yeah. Uh so was that uh three out of five? Um that's yeah, not so bad, not so bad. And some of them were just like I was close, but just you know, not quite. So um, not so bad. Not so bad. Um all right, you ready for yours? I think so.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:47

Let's see.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:48

Okay, let's see how we do here. Um, true or false, lowballing involves revealing higher costs after initial agreement. I would say true. Very good. Yeah. That would be uh like those questions, um, the hundred dollar questions on who wants to be a millionaire. It's like they're they're so obvious. It's like, what color is mustard here?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:20

Well, there's brown mustard, Kevin.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:27

Um, okay. Number two, fill in the blank. Written commitments create stronger blank pressure. Written commitments. Commitments create stronger blank pressure.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:42

I would say social pressure.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:44

Is that in your face? Says, I don't know about this. Do you want to phone a friend or something, man?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:51

Uh I'm gonna go with social and just rip the band-aid off.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:55

Okay, yeah, sorry, man. Uh consistency pressure is what the answer is. It's um, I wouldn't have gotten that either because social pressure found sounds right.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:07

So okay. Well, thanks.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:11

Yeah, sure. Um, okay, well, um, number three. You ready for number three?

unknown 1:05:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:17

What what amplifies commitment? A privacy, B, public decor declaration, or C, vague promises. Let's go with B. Public declaration.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:32

Declaration. B.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:33

Okay.

unknown 1:05:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:34

And it sounds like that's your final answer. That's my final answer. You got it. Yeah. All right. Um, well, we're gonna go for number four. Is that all right? Let's do it. Do it. Yeah, just do it. Um, true or false. Escalation of commitment is always rational.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:52

I would say false. I would say safe. My guts is false.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:56

Yeah, you read on that one, too. All right, Steve. Kicking ass tonight. I think so far, three out of four. You want a fifth question? Got a trip. Alright, let's see how we do. Fill in the blank here. Low ball technique. Exploit aversion to blank. Low ball technique. Exploit aversion to blank. Low ball. It is aversion.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:26

What we were talking about.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:39

I don't think I would have gotten this one either. Lowball technique exploits aversion to inconsistency. Well anyway, that was fun. We did all right. And I would say that uh for the most part, I would call that a win. Good job, Kevin. Yeah. We got some changes coming up, I think, for uh trivia in the future. I won't give it away now, but um it's gonna get even more fun than it already is. Can you imagine that? How could it get more fun? But I'm interested. I'm interested. Got you already hooked right now, so we are currently experiencing technical difficulties. Please stand by folks, a note of quick apology here. We ran into some technical difficulties during our Persuasion Club podcast right before the Persuasion Duel, so we'll have to cut it a bit short, but don't worry, we'll be back next week with more great content. Thanks for listening.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:20

I'll never join you! You killed my father! No, Luke.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:26

I am your father.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:28

That's not true! That's impossible!

SPEAKER_04 1:09:33

And the force? Well, that's just microscopic bacteria in your bloodstream called minichlorids.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:42

Look, if you're not gonna take this seriously, I'm out.