EP0021 06/07/26 - Win Bigly Part 1 of Part 3 (Master the Persuasion Stack

Bigly with Part 1 of Part 3, exploring one of the most powerful concepts in persuasion: The Persuasion Stack.

Why do some people seem naturally persuasive while others struggle to get their point across? The answer may not be a single skill at all. We'll break down the layers of the persuasion pyramid, including communication, storytelling, humor, sales, psychology, writing, branding, and more—and discuss how stacking multiple average skills can create extraordinary results.

We'll examine how persuasion professionals, marketers, politicians, content creators, and everyday communicators use these principles to influence outcomes and shape perceptions. Along the way, we'll share real-world examples, practical applications, and a few laughs as we continue our journey through Win Bigly.

Whether you're a longtime persuasion enthusiast or just discovering these ideas for the first time, this episode will help you understand why mastering the stack can be one of the highest-leverage investments you can make.

📅 Recorded Live: June 7, 2026
⏰ 6:00 PM PT
🎙️ The Persuasion Club Podcast
🧠 Logic. Humor. Perspective.Streamed from Rumble Studio!

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Government IT workers by day, persuasion enthusiasts and verbal cage fighters the rest of the time.

SPEAKER_03 0:07

If you'd like to level up your persuasion game to godlike levels, grab yourself your favorite stimulant and prepare yourself for the persuasion hit of the day. It's the Persuasion Club Podcast, and it's Start Start.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

And welcome. Hey Kevin. Good to see you.

SPEAKER_03 0:51

Let's uh do our sip uh toast through the screen here. Chink and nurse sip to Scott. Welcome uh to the show, everybody. Um I uh what what's going on with you, Steven? Uh any babies yet? No babies because I figured you're here.

SPEAKER_04 1:07

So yeah, no baby yet. It's getting so close. Uh I did some yard work and things outside today. Um just been kind of chilling the rest of the weekend, but tried to be productive today, get outside. It was pretty nice. How about you?

SPEAKER_03 1:22

Uh well, I took a nice drive with my wife up the McKinsey Highway uh yesterday, nate lunch um up at Blue River, just a little past there in a little town of uh Rainbow, Oregon. Um had an excellent um uh anniversary um lunch there. So anniversary, congratulations. Yeah, thank you. 31 years. Um, so wow. Um yeah, yeah. I've never really stuck at anything that long.

SPEAKER_04 1:51

So that's congrats. That's a that's a great long, long time, and and uh that's awesome. That's really cool.

SPEAKER_03 2:00

Thanks. Hey, for for Chuck, I have something actually, since you mentioned him. Um, here we go. I can only play a little bit of this so that we don't get a copyright with action.

SPEAKER_04 2:15

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

We would go the reference, so um okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:21

Well, I think we ought to go ahead and get into the show here. Uh because we've got some business to take care of. You ready for some business?

SPEAKER_04 2:30

Let's do business.

SPEAKER_03 2:31

Let's do business. All right. And um, we could just take this in no particular order here. Um, I am gonna kind of give us a little more volume on the thingy here, because I think that might help us out. All right. Um, so first of all, I wanted to uh do this one. When we uh did the show last week, uh we talked um a little bit about confidence and how important confidence um is uh to uh persuasion. And uh I mentioned uh a book um that I could not remember uh the name of. I remember the name of the book, I didn't remember the author. So um I wanted to go ahead and mention that again and put up a graphic here. This is uh Jeff Jeff Callahan, um, his book Confidence Maxing. Um I uh we haven't read it yet. Um and I keep telling people you gotta go out and and get the book. Um but the reason we haven't read it yet is that I think we're probably going to do this book maybe next on the show.

SPEAKER_04 3:42

So okay, cool.

SPEAKER_03 3:43

Um yeah, um it's just like uh we're we're covering uh uh Win Bigley, and I'm I don't know about you, but I think I'm actually either listening to or reading like four or five books at the same time right now. So I just couldn't add another one, but I know confidence maxing just from the description um and his appearance um a couple of times on the Scott Adams school um makes me want to check that out. So we're recommending a book that we haven't even checked out yet, but it could very well be our next uh next one.

SPEAKER_04 4:16

So maybe this might be an extra question, but and maybe you don't know the answer, but do you know when the book was published?

SPEAKER_03 4:23

I think earlier this year.

SPEAKER_04 4:25

Okay, because the reason I ask is like the term maxing is like a very recent uh term that kind of rose to the surface, and there's several ways that people are using that term, you know, whether it's looks maxing, which is a big controversial thing right now. Um I made a joke and I got some shoes that are like you know, technically dad's shoes, so I called them unk maxing. So I'm like, because the term also the term unk is referring to people like over 30. Uh, they call you unk because you're not a young buck anymore. You're an uncle. Uh so uh there's just uh the maxing term is pretty new, so that that makes sense. It it was published this year.

SPEAKER_03 5:08

Uh I believe, yeah, if I remember um his interview correctly. Um kind of cool. Um I don't know. You're familiar with the um LA mayor candidate uh Spencer Pratt. Um, and uh apparently the um Spencer Pratt has been reading this book. So um yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 5:26

I I'm only familiar with that person by name because I've been hearing uh about the California, you know, uh gubernatorial race or whatever that is going on. Uh the elections. So uh but I have no idea who that is, but I know that they're running for something in California.

SPEAKER_03 5:44

Yep, an interesting figure, and he's had got some interesting ads, and um uh he's uh had some pretty unorthodox um strategies uh as uh a candidate uh that would has really helped him out quite a bit, which actually in itself probably would be like a good study of persuasion someday, I imagine. So yeah, but anyway, yeah, uh uh check out confidence maxing. You can go to our site uh persuasion.club. You can uh find uh the link to the book and to Jeff um on there.

SPEAKER_04 6:18

So um it's nice, it's nice how easy the the website is to remember because our podcast is called Persuasion Club, and all you all you have to do is add a period between to get to the website. So that's cool.

SPEAKER_03 6:31

Almost like we did it on purpose.

SPEAKER_04 6:33

It sounds it seems really intentional, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:37

We we actually uh started off and we still have persuasionclub.com. Um, and then it um uh kind of occurred to me that there is a domain uh extension called dot club, and it's like, oh my god, yeah, like we could just do you know, so we we own them both, yeah. We nice um and uh more business. Um business actually might take us a few minutes, folks. So we'll try to get through it as quick as we can. Um, we mentioned the Scott Adams School. Um, do I have them up here? Um I do. So these guys, um, it's Erica Owen Marcella. Um do the Scott Adams podcast, so you can go check them out. Um, weekdays, um 7 a.m. Pacific time, 10 a.m. Um Eastern, right? So um they're the folks that uh took over the podcast after Scott passed away. They're doing an excellent job. Um like they have great guests, um, cover the news, um actually have uh pretty good format. I like the show. So nice mugs. Nice mugs. The right mug too, yeah. Yeah, so check them out. And speaking of those mugs, um another thing that people might be interested in is that um when it comes to official merchandise, uh it's hard to know where to actually find that. And there's that graphic gonna work. It's uh things are acting up for me a little bit here, but there it goes. Um that link um will take you to the official uh merchandise. I believe that some of most of that stuff is available, some of it wasn't for a while. Is now um if you can't remember it, um you can also go to persuasion.club and find that. I think it's more towards the bottom of the page. So um, and if that's not the right um link to the merchandise for for Scott Adams, then please do. Um normally we aren't promoting a lot of the Scott Adams stuff on the show, but since we're doing Wend Bigley, um we're definitely pumping that uh and promoting that right now.

SPEAKER_04 8:50

So cool, cool.

SPEAKER_03 8:52

Yeah. Um, but how about we promote ourselves for a second here? Shall we? We should do that.

SPEAKER_04 8:59

Look at that.

SPEAKER_03 9:01

Please uh check out those uh social platforms there. We're on all of them, including locals again. We're back, and um, we'll start getting some exclusive content out there for people to check out. So, anyway, um like, subscribe, all the things that you know I'm doing. All the things and all the things, so um, and that um kind of goes for most of the business um here. I did want to get into well, let's remind people that we do have, and since Chuck's in the chat, you might want to check out, we've got the the new emote icon. Um I this is kind of small, you can't really see it, but there is a Scott Adams thumbs up um emote icon in our rumble chat now. So even more reason to watch the show. Thought I had the bigger version of that, um, but I don't. So um check out. Yeah. And gosh, we have so much. Um, so let's also cover um this topic here. We have our persuader of the week. Ooh, yeah. Oswin the kitty. 12 years young, as I say. And once again, folks, I gotta say, um, honestly, this is my cat. Uh, not my cat, it's my wife's cat. Um, and so if you want your cat featured on our show, this is all you gotta do. I got to upload my cats.

SPEAKER_04 10:48

I I pull it up every week, and then dude, I don't even know what's going on. I I pull it up every week and I fail, I fail to do it every week. It's like, what the heck?

SPEAKER_02 10:58

Uh let's tell people how to do it.

SPEAKER_04 11:03

Persuasion.club slash purr. So that's all you gotta do. Nice. P-U-R-R. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:14

Very nice. Yes. All right. So um I wanted to um mention that we have been talking briefly on our show, um, kind of more in the after show part of um the the episodes um about a song that uh we created, um, and it is uh going to be the summer hit of the season. So most people don't know about it, but uh it's now released out there into the uh the Ethernet, uh so to speak. Um and um it's the summer hit. Check it out. It's a reframe.

unknown 11:53

That's Jaco! Let's take a go.

SPEAKER_04 11:56

This has been stuck in my head. I favored it, I listened to it. It's great.

SPEAKER_03 12:09

It's on Amazon, it's on Spotify, it's on Apple, it's on everything. You can actually go and check it out.

SPEAKER_04 12:16

Um, it's on Spotify too.

SPEAKER_03 12:18

Yeah, yeah, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_04 12:20

I listened to it on Amazon, and that actually Amazon's music, uh you know, I actually I don't care if I diss on Amazon, but the their music thing sucks. Uh like I had to like manually find it because I knew I knew how how to find I mean I knew that what to search, but man, uh it I'm Spotify is so much easier for me.

SPEAKER_03 12:44

Yeah, yeah, it's definitely um uh I don't have a favorite actually. I mean I used to like iTunes, but um it's actually become more problematic than um anything. So um, but um yeah, okay. Um let's go ahead. Uh there's just so much to cover here. Uh I did want to tell people that I finally I did get out and I got myself my uh box of the the raisin brand that uh Shatner's on. Um so you gotta go out and get a box of that. You can get it at Walmart, evidently, um maybe only online. But yeah, 10 bucks. 10 bucks for a box of of raisin brand. Dang, it better be some good stuff. That's right. So it's on my collectible shelf. Um, we are almost through all the stuff and ready to jump into the content here. Um, but I would be really remiss if I didn't at least uh tell people about this, but it just so happens that tonight, and um probably almost at this very moment here, there is an event going on in Los Angeles here. And being a big Rush fan, um, I just have to mention um it is the first date of their 50th something tour. Really? Yeah, um already started, huh? Yeah, yeah. And none of this video is kind of screwed up, but it's not just going all the way directly here, but um, anyway, we are out on the road again, my favorite band, and um we'll be seeing them in October.

SPEAKER_04 14:36

Very cool. October is not that far away. That's crazy. Four months, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:45

Maybe most people won't care, but um, if anybody ever notices, I'm almost always in a rush shirt on the show. Um, and um all of our um thumbnails are almost always rush. So and Chuck says uh watch the rush, uh Rick uh Beto interviews. Yes, yes, very um recently the some interviews I think uh I've checked out some of those. So pretty cool stuff. Um all right. Um so we're talking about Scott Adams here. We're talking about Win Bigley tonight. We're into chapter, not chapter, although I will say I did hear him mention chapters and the word chapters um in the book. Uh so uh conceptually, he um but you'll notice if you read the book, if nobody knows uh or hasn't started reading this yet, uh it actually is more divided into parts. So that's why you're seeing that we're talking about and dividing the episode into parts instead of chapters. So um, but uh before we get and dive into that, um it has uh been something that we've mentioned a couple of times as we've been doing this that um Scott Adams um uh has said that he is not a um uh uh either a Democrat or a Republican, right? So he he comes at this um analysis and this um uh of Trump not because he loves Trump. And I thought maybe I'd go ahead and play this video because it's actually a good illustration of that. When he was on Joe Rogan.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

And I was like, what? Scott Adams, the Dilbert guy is a Trump supporter?

SPEAKER_04 16:26

Because you know, everyone assumes I can hear it, but I don't see it.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Someone they're uh in the creative business, you know, you're in a creative business. You're you write a comic strip. You would assume that you would be a left-wing guy, like almost almost immediately.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

Well, I'm neither left nor right. I'm sort of all over the place. My my views didn't match, you know, either of the major candidates on anything. So you're a free thinker.

SPEAKER_03 16:49

Scott with his favorite stimulant. I like to think I'm right, but wrong.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_03 16:56

So I I like to think I'm right is what he says. And everybody else is wrong. Yeah, and everybody else is wrong. Um, so yeah, they go to check that out on YouTube, uh, Scott Adams, Joe Rogan. Uh great interview, I think uh one of those three hour ones. So uh I'll have to watch that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um Wynn Bigley, um, let's go ahead and um and talk about what um chapter three, um not chapter part three, uh uh and part one of part three. Um Steven, what what was your take? What what's the highlight? What's the the big thing he talks about in this uh this part of the book?

SPEAKER_04 17:39

Uh the biggest thing that that that is talked about is the talent stack. Uh uh in it and you know how it re how Trump's talent stack uh he goes through uh the lists out the different things that that he believes that are part of Trump's talent stack and that excuse me, uh the c he calls the talent stack a collection of skills that work well together and make a person uh unique and valuable. I don't know if that's exactly the quote, but that's kind of what I wrote down. And uh it the the skills don't necessarily have to be extraordinary, it's more of the combination of skills that can seem you know pretty uh ordinary talents, but it's the it's the combination and the ability to execute them all at the same time that make it extraordinary. Kind of what I picked up.

SPEAKER_03 18:35

I I like it because it actually gives hope. Um, because if you um I don't know about you, um we I think we've actually talked about this, we've had this discussion before. I am not very talented at uh at all at any given thing. I know a lot about um many things, but I I I I don't have a mastery of of any given thing.

SPEAKER_04 19:01

So I think yeah, I think a mastery. I kind of had this conversation with my dad the other week where he was like, you know, how come you didn't go further in like football or sports? And I was like, well, no one ever told me that if I wanted to be really, really good at one sport, I needed to commit my entire life to that sport. I tried to do a bunch of sports growing up, you know, I did football, soccer, basketball, and then at the end of my high school years, I did track. Um well, I did field, I did track and field, I did the field part. I didn't really run. But no one ever told me, and I was like pretty good at all the sports, you know, I could do var I could play varsity in all those sports, but I wasn't going to go to college for any of those sports because I didn't really focus on any of them. And I feel like in order to be really, really a master of one thing, you kind of have to dedicate your entire life to that one thing. So I feel very similar. I feel like I have a lot of skills. I I've shown interest and I've practiced and studied a lot of things, and uh I don't think I've mastered any of them. I just think I can get along pretty well in a lot of things, but I'm not, you know, I'm not the best at anything.

SPEAKER_03 20:17

So I have um, I don't know, maybe it's um I've never really considered myself to be someone that has anything like ADHD, but what I do have, um, whether it's that or not, is um that I can get into something and be really into it for um a certain amount of time, but then I do eventually get tired of that and and and find new things, new shiny things is my problem.

unknown 20:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:46

Well, eventually things are like, okay, I'm I've gotten to a point where I'm comfortable with this thing and I feel like I could jump in and participate anytime I want. So I should move on and find the next thing to get better at and learn. And um, you know, it's like a you you're like collecting talents and collecting skill. Uh but again, like I'm not going to be an Olympic athlete at anything because that just takes the kind of dedication and commitment that like I'm not ready to give to one thing. Or I've never been, I was never d told or directed that that I should do that until I was an adult. And I realized like, oh, the people who are good at basketball, like LeBron James, they live it. It's their entire life. They don't have to be able to do it.

SPEAKER_03 21:31

To the exclusion of everything, yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:34

Yeah. They they ignore everything, relationships, other sports, anything. They they commit every ounce of energy they have to that one thing and becoming the best. And it's like, yeah, I don't I don't have that.

SPEAKER_03 21:47

I can't but I guess that in that case, it's like um that that works for for for him because that that is his main talent stack. And And that's you know, so and that's that's necessary for what he does, and that's why he gets paid so well, like all you know, really good players and uh, you know, all really good musicians and and all that, right? You know. Um you know, but the the the kind of the converse which I think uh which I like which Scott talks about is that um there are all those of us, maybe more like us, um, and like um common folks uh perhaps, where um we we do have uh some skills um and some uh mastery um in some things that when you add them, add those things together can give you a pretty neat combo.

SPEAKER_04 22:41

So as I just got meowed at really loud. Sorry if I looked over at your persuader. Yeah, persuader is definitely trying to get my attention.

SPEAKER_03 22:50

Oh, but that's awesome.

SPEAKER_04 22:52

But yeah, I I feel like, yeah, uh being really, really good at one thing would be really fun. Uh and I just uh yeah, I've never it was never uh burned into my brain that way. I just have always felt like the more I could collect and hoard different skills, like I can play a little bit of guitar, I I grew up playing drums, I you know, I can do percussion, but I I wouldn't say that like I'm ready to be part of a performing touring band in any way.

SPEAKER_03 23:26

But but do you think like if you if you practice at it, you could get better at it and and whatever. It's not clarity at the moment, yeah. It's yeah, it's probably won't be no you're ready to be a dad.

SPEAKER_04 23:38

So yeah, that's another thing. Now I'm gonna have to learn uh now I'm gonna have to get the skill of being a father, which I feel like takes uh a certain amount of energy and focus that it that I don't even think you know most fathers understood either when they started being a dad. Because a lot of people, you know, I'm I'm I just turned 39, so I'm like I and I'm becoming a dad for the first time. So a lot of other people I know became a father like in their early 20s, maybe their mid-20s. So I'm already like 15 or 20 years behind a lot of people. My oldest brother had a kid at 19. Granted, that wasn't really on purpose or planned, uh, but it happened. And so uh that kind of changes your focus. And either you either you ignore that you're a dad and you continue to do whatever else you want, or you kind of have to put everything else on pause and become a father and like really really dive into being a dad. So and I'm I'm kind of ready to dive in and be a dad. You know, I'm not I don't want to ignore it or you know, so I'm I'm totally excited for it. I just feel like I I'm starting late, you know. It's a lot of people started in in their 20s, and yeah, uh I didn't.

SPEAKER_03 24:59

I think it's kind of cool in a way though, because um maybe uh having uh some of the wisdom that you have of a person who is 39 um compared to someone like myself when I was 26 and had my first child, um, you know, so it's like that that wisdom that you've gained um during that time is gonna be something that you'll be able to use and hopefully do better than I did, you know.

SPEAKER_04 25:28

So well, I'll tell you, if I became a dad at 26, me personally, when I was 26, if I would have become a father, I would have been a pretty shitty one. So I'm glad I'm glad that it took me 13 more years to like really refine even then the last year or two. I feel like I've worked I've worked out a lot of issues in my own life. And if I wouldn't have been able, if I wouldn't have taken the time to do that, I would have kind of locked myself into some of those issues and and maybe not have worked through them as quickly or ever. So I've I do feel pretty fortunate to have taken time. But you know, when my daughter graduates college, I'm gonna be, you know, in my 60s and you roll it around in the wheelchair, right? Yeah, yeah. I'll be I'll be the I'll be the old dad that everyone's like, that's your grandpa, or that's my dad. But but you know, hopefully she'll be pretty well balanced, and you know, I can reduce the trauma she has to experience because I'm not as shitty of a person. So that's what I'm hoping. That's what I'm hoping for.

SPEAKER_03 26:35

Nice. Uh totally agree. I think that'd be great. So we were talking about uh talent stack and the way the different talents can be um basically fit together. Um, I totally wanted to have a talent stack graphic uh to show how that might work, but I failed to get that done in time for the show. But um I think we could maybe illustrate verbally um how something might like that might work. And I'm just gonna use myself as an example. But um, and here we are doing this podcast here. Um, what do I know about persuasion um before we started this podcast? Practically nothing. Uh um so what what made me um at all um a candidate for hosting a show about persuasion? Um not much, you know, but here's a couple things that it the that I did have in my talent stack. Um one of them is that uh I have a radio um um voice, so to speak. I had um uh lessons in school, um, high school of all places, um, learned how to enunciate and and do radio announcing and do um audio uh type things. So that that's one. Um so I've done DJing and uh I've done karaoke. I don't know, that uh doesn't make me a singer, but you know, so um um having IT experience, having um an interest in um essentially just uh betterment and learning uh how to improve my own um soft skills and things like that, um, just having that kind of um aptitude and things like that. Uh you you assemble, and there's so many more, but those that's just an example, and you throw all these things together, and suddenly now uh maybe I don't have you know like the um the mastery set of skills that it would take to teach persuasion, but I do have the skills to get together with my good friend Steven and create a show uh where we talk about it and get better at it together, you know. So that's fun, you know, and and that's I I think that that's that's what we're talking about when when it comes to talent stacking.

SPEAKER_04 29:01

So yeah, and I would add you're uh you're personable, so you've uh obviously had a lot of experience working with other people, so that's a good one too.

SPEAKER_03 29:11

Uh I'm not personable at all. I hate everybody.

SPEAKER_04 29:19

You know, I it it it's hard to like identify your own personal stack because it kind of seems like boasting or or bragging, you know, in in a way, but it's really just I it's identifying like factual stuff that helps you be better at at what you're what you're doing.

SPEAKER_03 29:35

So and I would say that for yourself, uh since I don't want to talk and uh and toot my own horn all the time, one of the things that made me uh interested in you as a co-host is that I like the way that you articulate things and and think through things and and you talk about things maturely. You don't get real whipped up about things. You you kind of like want to hear about and understand them and and and get to you know figuring things out uh before you go running off making j judgments and stuff like that. And so it's just kind of a yeah, it's uh it's um something I don't find in a lot of people. It's just kind of more of a um, I don't know. I'll think of it, but there there's a quality um in the way that you you speak and the way that you talk that just makes me feel like you're you're listening and that you're trying to uh understand. So thank you.

SPEAKER_04 30:34

Thank you. That's very kind of you. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I I I do, I mean, having grown up in a a Christian, religious, kind of conservative background, and and also having kind of stepped away from that, I can I I definitely have uh experienced quite a bit in my life of pushing one message and kind of seeing things in one way, and then realizing later that like, whoa, this is not necessarily the way that everyone has grown up and views their life, and there's so much more that I've been ignoring, and I've been looking th through things through like one lens my entire life up to a certain point. And I feel like once I was able to realize that there are other lenses that you can look at life through, I it it just started like everything started making a lot more sense, and I started being able to connect with people outside of my inner circles, and um that yeah, I feel like there's been so much in my life that I've been thankful for because I've been kind of forced to see things through a different a different lens at times. And uh now I feel like I have all these lenses, it's like, oh, oh, okay, let me let me pull out this lens and I'll look at it through this one, you know. It's and being able to do that, you know, pretty quickly, uh, I feel like has helped me a lot. And I I'm so thankful that I have the experience I have, but I realized at one point that I am definitely very narrow-minded when I was younger, and there was just a point where it was like that's that's not going to work. I'm not going to get very far if I just view everything through a single lens and I'm and I don't grow or change at all. So um there's been a lot of that. Thank you. It's what you said was very nice. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 32:31

Yeah. Um kind of along the lines of what you just said, I like it when um we when we're talking how uh ideas spur other ideas and other comments and things like that, and kind of to what you said there, um, I had gone through a course, and many people might um have heard of this, uh speed of trust. Um, and uh speed of trust is uh a very um well it it's one of those uh kinds of things where you you um can uh become not only a better person but you know a better communicator. Uh you just it's could be life-changing if you actually uh believe it and adopt the philosophies uh that um that are it's kind of one of the it's written by um I don't want to say the same person, it's the son of the person that did the seven habits, I think, of highly effective people, I believe.

SPEAKER_05 33:29

Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_04 33:30

Um I need to read both of those. I have not I've not done the speed of trust, although I've heard uh people at work managers have gone through that.

SPEAKER_03 33:40

Have been doing it yeah, as their own book club. I um I it's a great uh thing. Um it's unfortunate that some people uh you you know how it is when you go through a a course or if you go to a seminar or something like that, and then like for the first couple of days or the first couple of weeks after that, it's like the all the thing, you know, it's like it's like you just discovered sliced bread, and it's like, oh man, you know, and you know, that's all you can think about and talk about, and you're just excited about it, and you know, you kind of come off of that high or whatever and stuff like that. Um, but speed of trust is one of those that after you come off the high, if you can just kind of keep it keep it going and just you know live by the philosophies, you'll be doing pretty good. Um, because one of the things that it talks about is being able to take uh the lens or the camera, as you you mentioned, and turn around and and actually look at yourself with it. Um so um, and that's uh that's something that most of us don't like to do. We don't like to look at ourselves. Um and so it's not a bad idea. Um it it yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:51

No, that's that's great. I I I I had I went through a huge transition in my life where I I went from shutting down any sort of compliment to just learning how to say thank you and accept what other people are saying. And um it I feel like even that was just like such a big uh obstacle for me was like, no, no, no, uh, whatever you're saying, like no, you're you're wrong. I I'm not that way, you know, you're you're too nice, you're too kind. But yeah, I had to I had to really work on just saying thank you and tell instead of telling people to shut up when they especially when they like say nice things or compliment. It's like um I feel like uh there's a lot of self-consciousness that goes into looking at yourself or being able to even accept a compliment. Uh that that kind of stuff can be really difficult depending on your upbringing.

SPEAKER_03 35:45

I feel the same way. Um, I'm uh very self-conscious, so it's um but then I can also be the other way and I can talk about myself all the time. That's weird. I don't know. I know, yeah, it can really backfire the other way. Um I threw the stats in there just because I can. So we we still got a few people in the room there. Not a lot, you know. I always expect that most people um are going to be watching in um the um replay of the show. Um there's um also the fact that most of the people on the east coast are probably going, hey, I'd like to go to bed, not watch these clowns talk about persuasion.

SPEAKER_04 36:28

So hey, this could be a good a good uh nighttime get you to bed podcast to listen to.

SPEAKER_03 36:35

It could be, yeah. I I would say so. So um yeah, and let's see. Um we really haven't even gotten too much into um because we had talked about um talent stack, but um what else did you did you want to talk about?

SPEAKER_04 36:53

Well, I feel like the talent stack is most of my notes. So I because there was so much to it, it was like a huge bulk of part three uh was talking about the talent stack and breaking down almost every part of it. So uh I don't know if you want to move on from talent stack, but uh I am very ready to just talk about it forever.

SPEAKER_03 37:19

So yeah, I'm kind of curious uh because we we've been talking talent stack, but um, I also think the the words that I remember throw uh being thrown around were also persuasion stack. Um does that sound like any of your notes or is it mostly talent stack?

SPEAKER_04 37:37

Yeah, I had I had persuasion was part of the talent stack. Uh let me see if I took notes about the persuasion stack. Um there were several persuasion tips, uh, and then it kind of got into like using fear in the in the way of persuasion, but I um I don't have any notes specifically mentioning the persuasion stack. What did you what did you hear about that?

SPEAKER_03 38:05

Well, I don't know. I mean, uh hopefully I was listening to the right stuff here. Well, so in my notes, I have the the the persuasion stack being that um this might actually have just been one one little uh offshoot of some of the things he was saying, but it was uh um the note um that some forms of persuasion are stronger than others. So um when it comes to persuasion, um you uh will do better with things that are visual because people will think more visually and respond to more visual persuasion um than say oral persuasion. Um and so and then if you don't have the ability you know to do visual persuasion, then your oral persuasion can help um paint that picture um that helps somebody see what you want them to see, um, and that that can be part of your persuasion. So um one of the things that and it this wasn't in the book, but I'll just throw it in there um now is that it could be good to uh learn how to become a good storyteller. If you're not good at that, that's not your thing. Um, because storytelling I think helps you paint pictures.

SPEAKER_04 39:27

Absolutely. I the the only note I have about the visual part is uh talking about the fear and using fear and persuasion because fear can be deeply persuasive. Excuse me. Uh I had it at there were five points of like uh of fear and using fear and persuasion persuasion, like number one was like a big fear is more persuasive than a small one. But one of them was fear with a visual component is stronger than one or than one without. Um because if you can show people what you're talking about, then that in itself, you know, they say this he didn't say this in his book, but in general, people say a picture is worth a thousand words. Yeah. And if you can just if you can show a moving picture, like that's a you know, that's a thousand pictures. So you're talking about like, you know, a million words. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So uh so I think that that that it's true. I feel like using using visual components is very persuasive and and not not just a a PowerPoint, but like a video of what you're talking about or like an example, like hey, uh if we're gonna talk about dropping bombs, here's a picture, here's a video of what it looks like to experience a bomb being dropped near you. And it's that would be that would strike fear into people's hearts because wow, that that's terrifying. That that that would be, yes, that is a very fearful thing if that was happening to you. And but if you just say it like I just did here with no visual component, it's kind of like oh, it's just part of the conversation. So right, yeah. Uh and he talked a lot about analogies and how they're terrible for persuasion. And he mentioned something called goblins. Do you remember?

SPEAKER_03 41:20

That I'm tracking with. I I didn't think no, but do you you want to explain it?

SPEAKER_04 41:25

Oh, uh sorry, I I think my computer glitched out there. Yeah, but uh when you're talking when uh I mentioned goblins law, is that what you were yeah. I I was wondering what that is. Yeah, he didn't expand on it much at all. I think that I think that the he expanded on analogies and how good they are at certain things. Like if you want to explain a new concept, an analogy is great. But if you want to persuade someone, an analogy is actually one of the worst things that you can provide. Yes, because and I think that Goblin's Law has something to do with like, you know, um people there was one story about people using like abortion uh as a uh as a fight or something like that. But um when you're using or like uh he they re they a lot of people related Trump to like uh Nazi Germany and uh Hitler, and I feel like using that uh analogy or trying to you know relate something that already exists to someone else to persuade people to like hate them or think the same thing is really just it's like it's just not a very it makes you look um like a goblin. I think it's like uh you don't you don't want to you don't or did he oh Chuck is saying Godwin not goblin maybe that's what happens when we read or do the audio version of the book. Um yeah, I I'm I I was doing audio, so I heard goblin. Yeah, okay, interesting. Chuck says the longer the longer online convo goes on, yeah, to Hitler. Uh so it's uh but that whole thing is just people using analogies to try to persuade you to think a certain way is just like the worst idea because um everyone has a different uh experience or view of the thing that you're trying, you're not you're not doing anything new or bringing up anything new. From what I understand, and that's that's where analogies are really good at.

SPEAKER_03 43:34

Yeah. When it comes to an argument, and when you've been when you're making your argument, like you say, um um when when it's an argument level, not necessarily concept level, where you're trying to explain a concept. Uh argument level um you you bring about the analogy, it means that you can't explain your own argument. You have to use an analogy you've Already lost is is basically the deal.

SPEAKER_04 44:03

So yeah, he he mentions it's like pseudo-logic, it's not real logic. You're it's like a cheat, it it it's he compares it to the also the term that he brought up that we haven't really talked about called word thinking. And he he also says that word thinking is the worst form of persuasion, and that's where the topic of abortion came up. Clinging to word thinking, it's not necessarily even it's not a defense, uh it's uh just really terrible for yeah trying to accomplish in persuasion.

SPEAKER_03 44:38

Um it's funny because you mentioned word thinking because um that's one of the things I wrote down. Um, and so it looks like we um definitely got to some of the same stuff here. Um, but word thinking, um, as the way that he described it sounds like um when people change the meaning of words to help their argument. So um I I like that that description because um if you can change the the meaning of words without changing the argument, then um that that actually is a good persuasion technique if you're gonna use it on somebody, but if it's somebody is actually using that, it's actually a weak form of argument. So um yeah, yeah, yeah. The word the word thinking, I guess um, it depends on how you think about it, but it's usually probably a bad strategy.

SPEAKER_04 45:30

So yeah, I feel like uh when it it we're we're kind of working backwards through my notes, so hope hopefully that's okay. I apologize for that. We're track we're tracking, we're tracking, we're tracking, yeah. Because this came after talking about taking the high ground where uh there was the whole um uh part where Trump embraced criticism and he used it for his benefit. So when uh in the he mentioned like the Rosie O'Donnell comment where they were where this like interviewer lady was like, so you know, you've you're known as someone who basically thinks that women are like ugly and and dumb or whatever, and he tried to like kind of corner him in an interview, and instead of like fighting against that, he just said, No, uh, that's pretty much I that only applies to Rosie O'Donnell.

SPEAKER_03 46:30

Which which I think everybody laughed in the audience, is from what I understand, because everybody knows, right? It's the one person that you know he picked the right person because everybody goes, Oh yeah, Rosie O'Donnell, you know.

SPEAKER_04 46:45

Yeah, I I remember so I I grew up that Rosie that O'Donnell had a you know TV show. Sure, yeah. And uh even growing up, my dad was like had he called her a lot of names, and this was like she is uh this and a that, and like nobody so I it I grew up I grew up basically around a lot of people that already had a negative perception of those or so I I feel like using her as the butt of the joke was a perfect comeback because you're talking you're talking to a person who is married and has a daughter and like so far shows like support for them. So to say that just to say that blanket statement, like you think all women are this and that and negative stuff, it's just like man, uh it was it sense of humor is one of the st is one of the talent stacks that is part of the talent stack that Scott Adams talks about Trump having, and that was a moment where his sense of humor kind of shined through, and I think it also was very effective. Yeah, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 47:56

It worked out really well.

SPEAKER_04 47:58

Yeah, um, and that was that part of the uh the high ground maneuver I it was kind of mixed in there, mixed in there, but uh it the high ground maneuver not not ex not a hundred percent exactly it the the Rosie O'Donnell comment I think led it lent more towards pacing and leading. So he's like matching the audience's view of something and then taking it to the next level. So he the Rosie O'Donnell comment was interesting and funny, and it was a very unorthodox response that you wouldn't think a professional or someone running for president would just blatantly make fun of a person like that. And he did so it was it was so and uh it worked, yeah. It worked a lot of people already agreed that a lot of people already don't like her, so uh, and especially his base, where you know he's he's on the Republican side, so the way that he he paced his audience and then he led them to thinking like kind of he matched it and then uh led them to kind of agree with him and think the same thing, and everyone forgot about the dumb question he was asked. So that was good.

SPEAKER_03 49:14

It is, and I I think that that does kind of illustrate a point. Um that like him or hate him, um, the that kind of persuasion is kind of next level. Um, and it's it's really why why he won. It's not because he had the best campaign or the best facts or the best um strategies or whatever. It was it was all persuasion, absolutely all persuasion. Why it's worth studying, you know, it it it totally is why we're looking at this, because um uh that that method, that whatever that we just talked about, if that's uh I think that is a bit of the high ground maneuver, but um, it's basically reframing the conversation, is what that is. Um and um that that strategy is brilliant, and to be able to execute that on the fly, um takes takes an extraordinary uh talent stack. So back to the talent stack, I think it's um something I would like to develop and and keep uh you know just to be able to just do that and pull that literally out of your butt, you know.

SPEAKER_04 50:29

Seriously. Uh there's so I I I thought about it this week. Someone knocked on my door and they were wearing like an orange vest. They look like a like a utility worker, and so I kind of got curious. I have a sign that says no soliciting right by my doorbell. And I answered the door and visible, right? Exactly. This kid basically just immediately went into a sales pitch for like new internet, fiber optic internet, and uh it wasn't till I closed the door because I basically told him to F off, and I I don't I it's like I was I tried to be really nice to him once I realized what was happening because I thought that maybe it was a utility worker and they needed some information, but he was trying to make a sale, and and I could have it after I closed the door, I was like, Man, I could have really burned that person, you know, with a couple of comments. Like, do you can you read? Are you literate? Like, do you see this sign? You know, like there's things that there's things that like uh I always close the door and then later think about like, oh, that could have been a good thing to say in the moment. But being able to in the moment, um in the moment, being able to think of all that and put it all together at one time, uh, like I basically shut him down immediately once I realized, you know, sometimes you end up letting salespeople talk to you for too long. Uh but I just was like, Oh, no, thank you. I'm happy. And he goes, Oh, well, what aren't you happy with? And I go, nope, I'm happy and I don't want to change. So have a great night. And just shut the door on him. It was like like there's there's no there's no point, like people knocking on your door can't make you keep your door open. And if you just close the door, they can't do anything. And if they do, then you can get the cops involved. And Chuck is saying in the chat, yeah, no soliciting is a salesman green light. But but but if a salesman knocks on your door and you have a no soliciting sign, it's also a green light for you to trash them. And it be say whatever you want because they are literally at this point trespassing on my property. And if you want to be on my property and I'm saying you're not welcome, uh there's a lot of other problems that you can be walking into. No, no kidding, right? So, you know, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:57

I have stories that I could tell, maybe even if in the after show, I could tell you, but I usually embarrass my wife. Um, I've gotten better at that over the years. So take that wisdom, Mr. 39-year-old, and wait till you're my age, which is older.

SPEAKER_04 53:15

Well, I think uh I think on the other hand, I'm like, well, this guy knows where I live, and if I if I'm too rude, he could always come back and do something like worse. Um you have to think about stuff. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I I don't want to be so mean that people want to retaliate, but at the same time, it's like if you're gonna open the door, you know, like it, like it's like a the straw man uh fallacy where it if someone attacks you instead of the argument, they're kind of opening the door for of like a uh a lot. And it's called out on their shit, yeah. It's up to yeah, it's up to one person in this conversation or argument to be the take the high ground basically, and uh you embrace the criticism, use it for your benefit, you frame things so that it makes you look like the adult and you're explaining things to children. It's like uh there's a lot that you can do to pivot the situation you're in without you know causing retaliation.

SPEAKER_03 54:21

Good stuff, very good stuff. Um well, I you know, we've got um probably more notes that we can shake a stick at. Was there any more that we wanted to highlight before? Um I figure that we probably won't do the game tonight. Um I I figure discussion-wise, this this keeps us going, but I do want to do a short uh little tech talk. Um, so if we want to maybe wrap this one up in the next few minutes or whatever.

SPEAKER_04 54:49

We totally could. And and next week we can talk about the persuasion tips he brought up in this in this uh section. For sure. Yeah, because those those are pretty good.

SPEAKER_03 54:59

I knew, and you were right too. You mentioned it earlier. Uh, we'll be camping here in and part three for a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 55:06

It's a chunky section, so yeah, there's a lot to it, and I feel like we're just scratching, we're just doing some scratching of the surface, and we could dive in on all of this quite a bit.

SPEAKER_03 55:16

Yeah, definitely. Um, okay. Um, so if we're going to do that, we could call that good for part one of part three of the discussion. That was um still pretty good uh half hour discussion, um, I think. So um we'll pick we're over an hour already next week, yeah. Well, we had a lot of business to to get to, and I know that that sometimes takes a bit of our time. Um go ahead and switch here into the this mode again. Um, I don't know. Now I figure out how to remove these things. How do I get rid of those? See what I mean? I don't know how to get rid of them now that I got them up there.

SPEAKER_04 56:00

Um you can drag them to like the bottom right or something. Uh maybe. I'm used to looking at things through chat, you know, watching live streams and stuff. Um, but yeah, oh it's going small there.

SPEAKER_03 56:13

Well, I just yeah, I'm just kind of dragging them and making them tiny. So if that does it or not, I don't okay. They're moving, they're going away. They're going away. Um, we are uh yeah, using this rumble stuff. Um we are still planning to implement our own technology somewhere down the road here, but um I wanted to share with uh folks here um a little bit of our tech talk. Let's uh do do do do okay. Some music might play. It might not. It's acting and kind of behaving a little bit slow. Might do a refresh of my browser and see if it behaves a little bit better here. Yeah, it's um being a little weird today. I don't know why. Oh, here we go. This took a little while to wake up. It's Tek Dog. Tek Dog! I wanted to um mention something kind of new and exciting because um it illustrates why it's good to uh put yourself out there and um learn and listen and discover new things or whatever. Um, you know, I've been telling you, Stephen, how I've been coding and working with AI to create a lot of our utilities, right? And um so um my my strategy and the way that I have been doing my my building with AI is that um I basically have it create code that I then download, and then I take those downloaded files and then I push them up to the server and then I test them, and then if anything is wrong, then I tell the AI, yeah, that didn't work, that was crap, or or that worked well, or whatever. And you do this constant iteration of builds essentially. Um and um the the real problem with that strategy, um, and I think I've mentioned this to you before too. I'm gonna switch back to a um different view here. Um but anyway, um the the problem with that strategy is that eventually the chat prompts will um they grow long because they've given you know you've exchanged a lot of information. You've told the chat prompt some stuff, it's given you stuff back, you've been doing this stuff, and it just gets slow and slow and slow. And so um the strategy that I've used to kind of get past that is to say, hey, um chat prompt, you're getting kind of slow. Create a tenacious handoff prompt, sparing no detail that I can use to paste into the a new window and then pick up where I left off. So and that has worked. It's actually gotten me a lot further than than I would have um normally. Um but it's still not at the greatest strategy because it it doesn't always remember things and it's not very aware, like most um uh AIs, of where your project uh files are um and what their their state of those project files at any given time because they change from from session to session, and you have to re-upload your files and get it more you know acquainted with your project again because it forgets, and you know, it's just not a very conducive or good way to work. Um but that's the way I've been doing it, and you've seen it actually has gotten us pretty far um over the last couple of months. Um yeah, but um anyway stuff that's come out of it. Yeah, yeah, thanks. But I wanted to share the the the really uh cool thing was that listening to the Scott Adams School, um, as I do uh usually when I'm um driving up to Salem, so at least three days a week for sure, I can listen to it um on live. And I was uh listening to an AI expert, um, and I want to say his name is Brian Um Romelli or Romel. Um I might have screwed that up a little bit, but anyway, Brian, I think he's might be listed on our um website. If not, I'll have to add him. But anyway, really, really great uh smart AI guy. And he just kind of casually mentions that if you're not using um, and I don't know if it's the same product or not, but I think he mentioned cursor. Um there's a product of uh Chat GPT. If it's not cursor, you it was something like that. But it's a way of actually taking um your uh the AI and kind of connecting it to your project so that it's constantly aware of where your project is and what you're trying to do and stuff like that, and then you can build that way. Um it sounds pretty damn cool. So I I did that. I hooked it up this weekend, and um and I'm just starting to experiment with that. But uh from from what I could tell, um, it might actually take the kind of stuff that I've been doing and level it up even more because it sounds like it's more powerful and that you can move quicker with things.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:38

So cool. That that's yeah, that's like a next level. Like I, you know, I'm very I'm very much a novice when it comes to interacting with AI too much. So uh you know, when I see things that happen, I am too, and I just really want to encourage people to yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:01

Um it's just kind of like you you start to imagine in your mind, and I knew in my mind that you know the way that I was doing this wasn't the best way to do it. Um I I just really didn't know that the tools were out there, and I kind of thought, frankly, that if there were tools out there, the the AI itself would say, hey, you know, there is a better way we could be doing this. But it didn't, it just kind of kept doing what it was doing. So I wanted to thank Brian. Um, I don't think he listens to our show, but maybe I'll uh send him a note telling thank you for passing on that idea because it could actually be leveling us up um faster and and beyond where we imagined. So that's great.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:46

And honestly, it that is a nice thing to do to tell somebody, you know, maybe he'll never reply, he'll probably see it. Yeah, but he may not reply. But I feel like telling someone that what they did helped in some way is a very nice thing to do.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:02

Yeah, he helped me, and I hope I'm helping others too. So um, but uh speaking of the AIs, I was creating the graphics, and this is kind of where we'll um end the segment in the show. Um so um I wanted to create a uh the thumbnail, you know, for Rumble uh for our show, uh to post that. Uh and I don't know why, but for some reason, um Chat GPT just decided that we needed to all look old. So um okay, yeah. So so check this out. It should be popping up here, hopefully. Um uh yeah, there we go. It was up there, it just flashed up there. Um try again. Oh, there we go. There we go. Hey I don't know if you can see, uh, but everybody looks older, more wrinkled than they really are in that picture. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, so I kept telling it, like, quit doing that. Don't make us so old. So then we got this one.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:10

Wait, oh, it gave Scott hair.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:13

Yeah, we look the same. Wait, do we not the same? About the same, so Scott got some hair in that one. So I'm like, oh, heck, what is that? So then it gave me this one. Oh none of us have hair now, and Scott's got a beard. Whoa. I I I kid you not, I kept telling it, you know, just take our the original picture, make us look not so old and wrinkled, and it just kept doing this stuff.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:46

Hey, you and I look a lot younger.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:49

I don't know about Scott, but uh Yeah, I know, but it's um I don't know. You don't you kind of miss your hair though?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:56

Yeah, I mean it's good to know that what I might look like being bald, but this one this one made me laugh.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:04

It's like it just did that to us, you know. It's like, okay, you're just not even the same people anymore, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:12

Like unrecognizable, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:15

Anyway, um that's the kind of stuff we talk on the show briefly, not too much. Um, you know, but we would talk persuasion, but we are a tech kind of show, so can't help it. Um, I guess that's really it for us tonight, then. Um, we'll do a little after show for um I don't know if you can hang out, Steven, but I will for a little bit if people want to hang out.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:39

Um yeah, I have a few minutes I can hang out. So all right.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:43

Well, thanks everybody for tuning in. And next week it'll be episode 22, right? Um and we'll do part two of part three. So there's a Taylor Swift song 22.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:00

So maybe that should be our theme next week.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:01

Yeah, I sent it.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:04

She'll definitely copyright strike you. I'd be careful.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:07

Yeah, Taylor, she'll get you. Figure out a way. All right. Well, great night, everybody, and we'll see you next week.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:17

See you next week. Bye bye. Good stuff.