EP0022 06/14/26 - Confidence Maxxing with Jeff Callahan

Sunday on Persuasion Club, Kevin and Steven talk with Jeff Callahan, author of Confidence Maxxing and a communication coach who's worked with Google, Microsoft, the US Army and more, and a regular on Scott Adams' show. 🚀

Jeff shares how he went from a bad stutter and extreme awkwardness to tracking over 90,000 conversations and building real social confidence. We dive into the practical systems from his book: crushing awkward moments, choosing your own reality, going first, sparking enthusiasm, and treating confidence like a learnable skill instead of something you're just born with. 🔥

We also tie it all back to everyday persuasion in the trenches, plus run a fun "Who Wants to Be a Persuader?" segment to test the ideas.

If you've ever overthought conversations, meetings, or networking, this one's packed with stuff you can actually use right away. 💡

Links:
Book on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Confidence-Maxxing-Awkwardness-Social-Confidence-Unforgettable-ebook/dp/B0GDCW94NW
Jeff: @thejeffcallahan on X
becomemorecompelling.com

Hit play, drop your biggest takeaway in the comments, and share it with someone who needs this! New episodes drop weekly. 👊

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Government IT workers by day, persuasion enthusiasts, and verbal cage fighters the rest of the time.

SPEAKER_02 0:07

If you'd like to level up your persuasion game to godlike levels, grab your favorite stimulant and prepare yourself for the persuasion hit of the day. It's the Persuasion Club Podcast, and it starts now. Oh there's a bottle.

SPEAKER_03 0:36

There it is. Next time I'll have to put that on my notes. Hit the little button that makes the music louder. Welcome. We'll fix that in editing. Um happy, happy um uh June 14th to you, Stephen. Welcome. Thanks, Kevin, and good evening. Happy Sunday. It's funny because I'm welcoming you. You're you're like the the co-host. Welcome to the guests. But welcome to you, Stephen. Um, yes, um, we we have a guest in the studio, and um, I don't want to keep him waiting any longer. So we're going to go ahead and do that now. Um and um then we'll go ahead and get into some of our business. So please, uh, please do welcome uh Mr. Uh Jeff Callahan to the show. Hello. I'm happy to be here. I got my mug. Good evening. This is if Scott.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

My my memes are coming to life.

SPEAKER_03 1:50

If uh anybody didn't know, um this is um our wonderful guest, Jeff Callahan, who we were speaking of just uh a few um well last show and the show before that, and uh we had a tremendous opportunity um to have him on the show. And when he asked when, I was like, Well, my goodness, let's not uh well actually Steven says I don't want to wait uh because my baby's coming soon, so we got to get him on the show now. So thank you for coming and hanging out with us uh this evening, Jeff. This is awesome.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

Yeah, uh yeah, I you know it's funny. I I follow you got you guys on X and uh I've uh clocked a couple of times that you guys have mentioned me on the show. And uh the the last time I think I just randomly I was scrolling, if I'm not mistaken, and uh I think I saw one of my memes pop up on on your show, and I was like, what is that? It's like uh so um re reached out to you guys, and I'm glad we're we're we were able to set it up. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 2:52

Well, um we'll dive into uh things here in a moment and get to know you a little bit more, but if you wouldn't mind, we do have a little bit of business to get uh to if you uh are okay with that. All right, so diving in. A few things for us to do. What episode number is this, Steven? Uh today is episode 22. 22. We had a little talk about this the other day because we were gonna like uh do something to commemorate uh episode 22. Um, and you mentioned a certain artist actually has a song out there for for that, right?

SPEAKER_02 3:36

Yeah, if you haven't heard of Taylor Swift, uh it's time to take the earplugs out and check her out. No, I can't no, she does have a song called 22, and I did kind of joke about that. That should be our theme song tonight.

SPEAKER_03 3:50

Well, um unfortunately, you know how it goes, those copyright strikes wind up hitting us, you know, so we can't uh do that. So we gotta watch uh but if you remember, I did kind of make a little bet. I said I probably could somehow integrate it into the show somehow. So with the further ado. Oh, here we go.

SPEAKER_04 4:15

Oh my god, that's some amazing imagery here.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:42

This is what happens when I'm in charge of production of the show, Steven.

SPEAKER_02 4:46

Yeah, W production, W production. Thank you, thank you. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:51

Uh let's also tell people about us. This is us. We are these guys, Persuasion Club. Please follow us on those socials there if you aren't already. Um, tell others about us. It is rule number one and two of Persuasion Club. You talk about Persuasion Club. Um it is um, it would be doing us a favor um if you follow, because um that way more people see us and find out about us. We would be remiss if we didn't also find out that it is flag day today. So happy flag day, everybody.

SPEAKER_02 5:29

Happy flag day.

SPEAKER_03 5:31

Yep, yeah, big one. Also the birthday of the army. So oh wow, I don't have any music for that one, but it is the the army's birthday. Happy birthday, army. Um also um lots of things today. It also happens to be bourbon day. So if you happen to like bourbon, um, I used to drink. I don't uh haven't for a while now, but I used to love bourbon. It was good stuff.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

So that's that is good stuff. I used to work, I did some website work for a uh whiskey bourbon company uh in Oregon, not you know, a few years ago, but uh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:12

And then there's the Scott Adams reframe for so you could go either way on the uh celebrating that one today if you wanted to. Um and then finally, um, you know, it is um we've been talking about the 80th uh birthday of President Trump. A day we wanted to acknowledge that. Wow, yeah, no kidding, 80. It's amazing. Presidential birthday. Yeah. Um, but of course, um uh we it would make sense that we acknowledge him because he's been so kind to us.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

You know, I know persuasion, I know confidence. People come up to me, tears in their eyes, and they say, Sir, where do I learn this stuff? I tell them Persuasion Club. They've got Scott Adams level reframes, Jeff Callahan teaching confidence, maxing, very important, and two hosts, Steve and Kevin, who somehow make psychology funny. Nobody does it better, believe me. I give those guys an A plus, maybe an A plus plus. Nobody gives more pluses than me.

SPEAKER_03 7:24

Wow. You know, after all that kindness, you know, I I don't know what to say, Mr.

SPEAKER_02 7:31

I can't believe he recorded that just for this episode.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

Yeah, you know, he he he even looked a little younger too. I think it's a club and the confidence acting is de-aging him as we speak. Maybe he's got that good stuff.

SPEAKER_03 7:44

So um, trust us, Jeff. We'll get to the good content. Um, uh, that would be you here very quickly soon. Um, we have a couple more things here. Um just uh a weekly thing now. It is the persuader of the week. It's goose. And once again, tell us a little bit. This is Steven's cat, okay? Because nobody's been uh submitting their cats yet. So, you know, we gotta get some people going on that. Tell us about Goose Steven.

SPEAKER_02 8:21

Hey, goose goose came from a hoarding situation uh around the Portland area of Oregon. Uh he was like one of I think near a hundred cats that they confiscated from a property. And uh as soon as I saw him, I was like, that's the guy I need to take home. I was looking for a cat to adopt. So he's a rescue and he's uh been super chill. And uh I think he's uh seven years old now. So he's been around for a minute and he's doing good.

SPEAKER_03 8:50

Looks like an awesome cat. Um, all right, and let's tell people real quick how they can submit their persuaders.club slash per. All you need to do. Boom. Okay, and then we'll just do the final reminder here. Uh the people, if you will, um, if you're on the rumble channel watching, you can uh use the new Scott emote icon there. Um just uh look for that in the chat. Um, it'll look something along the lines of that in the chat. So um yeah, our own custom Scott. So all right, we're gonna get to some confidence. We thought that's I'm here on the screen I put that and back into this screen. There we go. Boom. Okay. You know, it is Rumble Studios, so um, if uh if we don't do um something that uh involves Rumble Studio failing in our podcast at this point in time, then it's how it goes. All right, Jeff. Uh so I've thrown up the graphic here. This is you. Tell us um all about yourself. We're welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

Yeah, so for people that don't uh don't immediately know me, uh, my name is Jeff Gallahan, and I am the author of Confidence Maxing, which is a book that is sweeping the nation, as I say. And uh reviewers have have likened it to the uh new how to win friends and influence people. People are calling it the atomic habits for people skills and many other complimentary things on Amazon. And uh my my backstory is I throughout most of my most of my life up to a certain point, I was painfully shy, had a s had a speech impediment so bad I couldn't say my own name, uh, which as you might imagine made connecting with people a little bit more difficult than it needed to be, made uh the the um the what we'll call it the availability of confidence near zero. And so at a certain point, you know, this was through middle school, high school, even some of college, uh I realized, hey, I don't want to live the rest of my life like that. I'm planning on living a long time. I would like to get up up near that 80-year mark uh that the president is celebrating today. And so went on a self-development binge, and lo and behold, I started to find out look, I'm not the only person who has struggled with social confidence and pupil skills. Uh apparently a lot of people do. The only thing is that they they typically don't talk about it, but they talk about it to me, and that's how I know it's a big, big issue. Uh and over the last 10 years, well, 12 years actually, uh I've been running my company become more compelling, which I coach people, I think startup founders, many major leading companies, primarily STEM, uh, and I I coach people to have more social confidence, have better people skills so that they can live the kind of life that they want. Sometimes that's career oriented, and sometimes that's just their personal life. And uh the book is kind of like a like a zip file of my brain uh that you can listen to or you can read and and learn uh learn all the knowledge that took me 20 years to learn. So that's the that's the back of the cereal box for me.

SPEAKER_03 12:24

That's the elevator pitch. Um, and it's it's a good one. Um I'm uh inspired just listening to you. Um Steven and I both uh received uh the the audio copy. Thank you. Um I also um ran out and um well I ran out to Amazon.com and got my copy uh there and it arrived yesterday.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Um so I'm already looking book.

SPEAKER_03 12:46

It is very, very nice. Um and um I'm uh listening already. Um I listened to the intro and then I went forward and looked um at the 20 things that you were talking about. Um so um I'm going to uh kind of turn things over to you. Um and well, first of all, um maybe we can actually ask you a few back and forth questions before we get into your teaching here because um I don't want to miss out on that part. Um if Steven wants to jump in with a question, uh that's great, or I can either way.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

I do have a question. I don't know how far ahead this is gonna jump of anything you plan to share, but when it comes to uh getting the confidence to even teach people about confidence, how did that first uh how did you run into that first time where you coached someone through it? Was that uh pretty organic or how did how did that work? If hopefully that's not too loaded of a question.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

Yeah, that's it, that's a good question. So, you know, I'm thinking back to you know, some of my very, very first clients. And you know, I guess where it started was you know, I I knew I knew for a long time that I wanted to be some sort of entrepreneur, right? Uh I remember reading the four-hour work week back in probably 2007, and uh there was just one little, I think it was literally a paragraph in there talking about how you could um you could build a business around information. Like you know something, you know how to do something that someone else might want to learn how to know and do. And I remember reading that and I I remember thinking, wow, that's possible. Like, you know, it didn't even occur to me that that was possible. I thought if you're going to have your own business, you know, you have a brick and mortar business, you sell, you sell some kind of good, right? Uh, and so that kind of blew my mind just reading that. And so I, you know, I started thinking, well, what am I what am I good at? What am I able to teach? And you know, there were several things that were that were good possibilities, but one of the things was, well, you know, I overcame this this sort of uh lack of confidence, if you will, and I started just getting curious and thinking, like, well, if I solved it, there were probably other people that would like it solved as well. And that was kind of the hypothesis. And then I started sort of poking around forums in the internet, and it turns out a lot of people want help with this. Uh they they just aren't all that uh public about it. And um and then when I started getting my first few few clients, it was, you know, at that point I didn't really have much of a system. I knew kind of large tempholes of like what needed to be done. Um, but the I would say the system came later. Uh in the beginning, it was just a lot of asking clients questions, like like what do you need help with? Oh, well, there's this situation and that situation, and and this and that, and and then thinking of solutions on the fly. Uh it's funny. Uh my buddy and I send reels back and forth through each other, and there's there's one that we always end up sending when it's two panels. One panel is someone overthinking something, and then the next panel is a f is a jet like a I think a top gun maverick, like a jet pirate uh pilot, and he's reading a manual that says how to become a pilot. And so you have to, you know, if you want to do something, like you can just do things, right? And so part of it is you want to be competent at what you're doing, but but you have to start, and the more overthinking and over optimizing you do, the the um the the less good outcome you're probably gonna get because you're gonna get stalled out. And so I remember back, you know, 10, 10, 12 years ago, those first clients was very much a work in progress. And uh uh, you know, I was able to help them in a in a profound way, uh, but a lot of those those first sort of cohorts of clients was simply asking them what they needed help with and finding a way to help them.

unknown 16:44

Nice.

SPEAKER_03 16:45

That's that's that's exciting. Yeah. It's uh to me, uh, you've got that zero to hero uh success story uh going on there, Jeff. So that's uh a really neat thing because uh you know it'd almost be kind of cool. I don't know if you have any videos or or things uh from uh before and after kind of stuff, but that might even be kind of a little weird now to go back and watch like uh things. But tell us a little bit about how the stutter thing worked uh and and how you overcame that.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

Yeah, so what's funny is if you if you listen closely, you'll see that I I still hesitate over some some words, um, but I'd say it's about 98% gone. And um, you know, it's funny, I I'm always reminded of when when Scott Adams, our uh mutual mutual friend, uh when he had his spasmodic dysphonia and and like how limiting that was for him. And and I could really identify with that quite a bit, just from the standpoint of not being able to communicate what you what you want to communicate. And I would uh I uh there are probably easier ways to go about curbing something like that. I I opted for the brute force technique where I just put myself in a lot of situations where I knew I would have to be social. Uh I got a job in retail sales uh you know, gosh, 2005, maybe a long time ago now. Um and you know, over the last 20 years, I estimate conservatively, because at a certain point I stopped counting. Um I used a little math to help me with this, but I estimate I had probably close to a hundred thousand conversations, if not more, uh, because I just stopped counting at some point because it's you know it's like okay, right, right, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:25

You know, um kind of like watching Strange Brew after three or four hundred times you just stop counting.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

Yeah. And uh and part of that was my my hunch is that the speech impediment was was uh largely attributed to I I would just say nerves in social situations, I guess. That's my read on it. Probably someone with with a better background would would explain something a little bit more scientific. Uh but for me, I I noticed that hey, yeah, I want to get over this, and and and by God, I'm gonna get over it. And so I'm gonna put myself in a lot of interactions to brute force my way through it. Uh so maybe not the most efficient way to do it, but I would say it worked because now at this point in my life, I'm 39. Sometimes you for you forget how old you are too. Um you know, there is just not a social situation that stresses me out in the in the least. Um you know, just I think part of that is you you grow and you as you get older as a person, you you you start to realize the stakes are relatively low in almost almost every interaction. Um but the the neat thing for my clients is you know I w I work with all ages, but uh the average age of my clients around 31 years old. Uh and for for for someone who and I do work occasionally with people even a little younger than that. So I think about that person who's you know in their like mid-twenties, you know, mid to late 20s, like if they get to learn the kind of uh uh things that I can teach them, they've got a longer time horizon to execute on it. And man, that's that's a huge advantage, like learning any skill as early as you possibly can learn it, um, because that really sets them up for success for the long haul.

SPEAKER_03 20:12

Absolutely. Uh speaking of that embarrassment part there, I remember that one of the things that Scott Adams would say is that in order to get over the embarrassment, just go out and embarrass yourself, just keep doing it until you just don't become embarrassed anymore.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

Yeah, and and there and there's just there's just wonderful kind of immunity uh that you get when whatever you're trying to do, if you can do something in relative public, I say relative public, I think a live stream would fall into that category, right? I started a uh a live show in the mornings confidence maxing live, and I wanted to build that skill set um because I'm always kind of looking for any any uh last scraps of potential embarrassment, and I want to find those scraps and hammer hammer them out uh so that I'm immune. And uh I think what comes with that too uh is if you own own your own company and like there's no one on earth that I answer to, you know, outside of like like you know, the people that are really important to me, like like my really close friends or my wife, and you know, people people I really care about, right? Um, but that that also gives you kind of a a wonderful immunity to the opinions of others, which is nice.

SPEAKER_03 21:26

Right. I like it. I like it. Um so Jeff, we had uh uh talked a little bit before the show um over email and stuff, and we thought that if you had anything uh that you and you know had in particular that you would like to share with us this evening, um, that you could go ahead and and just have at it for about 20 minutes. Do you want to jump in?

SPEAKER_01 21:46

Yeah, so there there are a lot of different options on the table for us, and and um you know, one I think I I think it would probably be helpful to to cover just kind of the broad strokes of um one of the first chapters. Which is competence maxing, not confidence maxing, competence maxing. Because uh one one of the um one of the like the preconceived notions that people have uh when they hear the word confidence is like oh you just have to be confident. And it's like okay, well, yes, that's true, but what's the mechanism behind becoming more confident? Um because what's funny is yes, my book is about people skills and communication skills. That's where I hang my hat. But I've had people uh message me and say that they're like losing weight with my book. And and like uh just building any any kind of skill. Like I've had clients uh um become better at golf, like you using some of the stuff. And and the reality is it's it's the it's the feeling like you if the end state is I want to be more confident at the skill that I'm building, well, I need to know the roadmap to get to that uh confidence. And so uh when it comes to communication skills, a lot of times what people are doing is they are sort of sort of running a mental loop in their head of um like they're showing themselves frequent proof of their incompetence. And we do this in a few different ways. A really common way is simply you remember an awkward moment from years ago, or you you you really um don't want an awkward moment to happen, so you're kind of trying to avoid it as much as you can, and sometimes that can actually cause an awkward moment. And and all of that is just doing one thing, it's uh reinforcing your own perceived level of incompetence. You're not gonna become confident with that loop running, it's not gonna happen. Um, so one of the big things that I talk about with my clients is one of the first things to talk about, and I talk about it in the book too, is uh, and I'm I'm I'm cheating by reading reading a little bit of my book too, even though I wrote it. Sometimes I need a little bit of repression myself. Uh there is no confidence without competence, right? Competence is built through consistent action. Consistent action creates automatic improvement. And confidence is simply the ability to predict the outcome of your actions with a high degree of accuracy. Accuracy only comes from a high number of reps. And the final point here, I'll pause, is show your mind frequent proof of your own competence, and soon you'll believe the proof. And so one of the most important things you can do, it doesn't, it really doesn't matter what skill. Um, I just happen to have a deep love for communication and helping people in that arena, but this would apply to you know something more technical. Like if you're starting to get into vibe coding and you want to show yourself frequent proof, proof of your competence. Guess what you have to do? You have to record instances of you being successful at what you're trying to do. Uh the form that this takes with clients is I'll have them write down social wins. Sounds pretty easy. Um the uh number one sort of feedback that I get is clients will uh, and I'll stress this to them like even something small counts. Saying hi to your doorman counts. Uh nodding at someone walking, walking the dog, you know, that you've seen a few times, like that counts.

SPEAKER_03 25:20

Hi to somebody in the elevator on the way up and wishing them a good day, sure.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

It it all counts because the what we need to do is build a solid track record of evidence that we can be successful in whatever skill it is, right? You can you can apply this to other skills. Um and so a lot of times clients will come back to me and they won't count something because they thought it was too easy. And I'm like, oh no, I I want you to count that um and write it down, actually. Why do we write it down? Because we need to be able to review that social win later, you know, once a week. We we need to be able to thumb through our social win.

SPEAKER_03 25:59

And then referring back and looking at those. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

Because it's very easy. Um there's this this baked in, it's a it's a wonderful little little feature of the human psyche called the negativity bias. I'm I'm sure you guys are probably familiar with this, where uh we tend to place a lot more importance on negative things that happen, uh, including wishing them not to happen in the future, then when we might place any sort of um stickiness around positive things that happen. And it on a certain level it makes sense, right? Because our our cavemen great-grandfathers, when they were doing their podcast around the campfire, if they heard a rustling in the bushes, they would think, Oh, okay, no, that's really bad. We need to get out of here. They didn't care that it may have been a bunny, you know. Uh they they were like, okay, maybe let's uh rejoin the others, right? Um and so Rick Hansen, PhD, has some some really good writing on this, but uh he he says that um positive experiences are like Teflon uh and negative experiences are like Velcro. And so we have to work extra hard to capture and remember those positive experiences because our the way our brains are wired, there's gonna be no trouble with us remembering those uh negative experiences or those feelings of incompetence. Um, but but we have to work really hard to remember the positive things, and I'll I'll I'll bring up one more point and then I'll throw it to you guys for reaction. Um another really closely related part of that is say that you have an interaction that goes like 95% well, you know, like it's really good, it's like mostly fantastic, but there's like five percent that maybe maybe something could have gone a little different. You could have told that joke in a different way, or you you you went for a handshake, but you ended up getting caught between like a fist bump and a handshake, and you didn't know what to do. And and so what do you do? You might have a uh uh knee-jerk reaction to wad up the entire 100%, including the 95% that was great, and then you toss it in the failure bucket. Uh, and you don't need to do that because you're discounting a mostly good interaction that could serve as a great proof in the future that yes, you are competent. So that was a lot. I'll throw it back to you guys. Any any thoughts, questions, or reaction?

SPEAKER_03 28:21

Let Stephen have a chance at it first.

SPEAKER_02 28:24

Uh so going back to when you were talking about, you know, people tend to focus on the times they mess up, uh, right before that at the end of your first chapter as well, you were talking about the difference between wanting and deciding. And I feel like that kind of hit hard too and relates to some of the stuff that you're talking about with the competence maxing as well. Um, just of uh wanting is like daydreaming. And uh when you decide you're going to do something, uh, that takes your commitment level to an area where you basically can't avoid it, uh, or or you don't want to avoid it anymore because you're deciding that you're going to do that. And um so uh the negativity bias that kind of comes not far after that is talking about it can be a protection mechanism, like you were saying for the cavemen, like get let's get let's get out of here and join the others. But for the uh uh for this topic, um negativity bias can stop you from feeling competence. And I also I don't know if you feel this way, but uh the competency is also it is a big part of feeling confident. And you had talked in your book about people that were really competent at something but hadn't practiced the confidence part. Does that uh was that right, or am I misquoting you on that?

SPEAKER_01 29:48

Uh within the Yeah, so that I I don't remember writing that specifically, but what I will say is um, and actually I wonder what what we can do is I want to share a I think this will be fun. Uh I've got it on my X, and what I'll do uh I'll DM it to you real quick because it's a it's a nice little uh graphic. I will find. I've got it right here.

SPEAKER_03 30:16

Let's see if I can do this live.

SPEAKER_01 30:19

So let's see, I'll I'll send it to you via via DM right now, and we'll see. We'll see if this works. And uh because I think you you bring up a really good point, Stephen, where uh there are there's something I didn't write about this in the book because I came up with this after the book, uh, called the confidence roller coaster, uh, where there are different levels of confidence and competence, and what that actually means for um you know your your journey to become a more confident version of of yourself. And so we'll see if we can if we can pull that up. But what I like about it, if you have high uh high confidence but low competence, that's the Dun and Kruger zone, you know, where we've all met people that have really high confidence, but their confidence is low. And and re if we're being real honest, they shouldn't talk a lot about it because you know it's not good. Um the next stage is you have higher um competence but lower confidence, and that's imposter syndrome, right? Where uh you're you're more capable than you think. And then the third stage is sort of what I call helpful overconfidence, where uh I did a story on on my live show. Yeah, perfect. Uh and so I did a story on my live show of if your if your confidence is just slightly higher than your competence, not done in Kruger zone, but just a little bit higher, that actually increased the performance of people doing some sort of task. I can't remember the exact study. Um, and it but but it got me thinking of like, you know, that's actually the ideal zone is high competence and maybe just a little bit higher confidence that we have kind of what I call this is we have faith in our ability. Where if you, you know, putting this in communication terms, if you have a thousand interactions, you start to unlike you start to recognize patterns and you start to recognize just the general, I think about it kind of like the angle of of what most outcomes are gonna be. They're gonna be uh almost all in this range. Sure, there could be an outlier here or there, but you know, just probably not, right? The statistics just aren't aren't supportive of that. And so you end up developing a real faith in your ability. Uh, and what's nice about that is you're you're thinking less in the interaction, and you're you have a lot more faith in your ability. And so even things that would have tripped someone up if they uh were less confident because they had less competence, it's not gonna trip you up because it's just gonna where what would be like a massive speed bump to someone is gonna feel like a pebble to you because you have a lot of faith in your ability. So any any thoughts or reactions there?

SPEAKER_03 33:06

Kevin? I would say that uh the repetition and keeping at it is definitely key. Like I notice in myself that um the first time at something, I'm gonna suck. And the next time I'm gonna suck a little bit less, but pretty much still suck. Um, and then after a number of times, I'm gonna not suck so much um at that thing. Um, and I like in your book you you point out, um you kind of alluded to it too, that you gotta take these things one at a time. So if you're you're trying to to pick like a bunch of things to work on and your confidence all at once, then it's gonna be a little bit tougher um than if you just pick um the one thing. So um I like the roller coaster illustration that that makes sense to me. Um I I see the value um and in taking it uh in that stride. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:02

Yeah, and the uh one point I'll I'll bring up there because you you bring up something really important is the more often I do something, the easier it gets. And that's generally true. And what I talk about in the book is something called effort gravity. Uh, in chapter It's a joke on my live stream that like anytime I reference a chapter, I don't know what chapter the thing is, because I'm always off by one. Like I'm I just I'm always off by one. Uh, but it is in chapter seven. See, I was I was gonna say a different chapter. Um in chapter seven, there is what I call jumping the motivation gap. And so what most self-help type books uh just don't bother to cover is what do you do when you're trying to improve something, but motivation wanes. To me, that's like the most important thing because if you don't cover that, my goodness, like nothing else matters. Uh and so one of the things, one of the concepts I talk about in that chapter is effort gravity. Simply put, the more often you do something, the easier it gets. And so what that means is if you're learning anything new, understand that it's probably about as hard as it's going to be the first time you do it. That's uh that's roughly true. Um I think, you know, I think about when I started going to the gym and and started to uh work out. Not only did I have to like go to the gym, I had to learn all the lifts because I didn't know how to do the lifts. I needed to execute the lifts correctly, and I was trying, I was trying to gain muscle, so I I had to like stick to my diet plan. There's all these new behaviors. And in the beginning it was tough, but six months later, eight months later, I wasn't even thinking about it because it was just automatic, right? And so anything you can do to just, and I think it's really helpful for people to understand, because I feel like a lot of people don't understand where where they'll they'll think, oh, it's always gonna be this hard, because of like a straight line sort of a fallacy, right? Instead of thinking, hey, it's gonna get easier every single time I do it. So why not keep doing it?

SPEAKER_02 35:56

Kevin, you might be muted.

SPEAKER_01 35:58

We got some dramatic silence there.

SPEAKER_02 36:00

I I see red under your uh picture. Uh it's like a hard muted and rumble. If you take too long, I'll I'll jump in because I do have a comment and a question. Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 36:10

Go ahead, Steve. Uh uh now, but I don't know what muted me. Something did, but you since you have another question, take it.

SPEAKER_02 36:18

Oh, we were just going back to I I I I've been thinking this whole time, uh, I've just been like silent, but the the competence with the confidence, the roller coaster that you had, the imposter syndrome. I've always been someone that's been doing stuff. Uh, and I I'm always a little bit less educated or certified than the people surrounding me. So that's always kind of led to uh, do I have the competence to do this? But I have confidence in myself to learn something new and to jump in and and kind of be fearless and uh dive in head first. But I don't always uh understand or feel confident about uh the certification or education I have. And something that I've learned from doing that over and over again is usually certification and education helps people get somewhere quicker, but uh but having the skill and the repetition and doing things over and over again and and taking those chances and uh taking opportunities usually gets me to where I I want to be quicker. And it's not, it's more of uh like you're saying, like don't don't let the uh bad experience stray you because it's not always going to be that way of doing something over and over, like you said, working out at the gym. Uh yeah, I if I if and when I do take a year or two off of lifting weights, like those that first week is terrible. It's like, oh man, I I have to I can barely like sit down on the couch without feeling so much pain. Uh so there is, I I do like that you uh continue to repeat the repetition. You can just do things, like you can do things, and there's nothing stopping you really from just doing something and and creating that opportunity. It it's all around you. It it's more of the fear that you have that that's gonna hold you back. So that did speak a lot to me.

SPEAKER_01 38:07

Yeah, my favorite um uh meme that that has become more popular, people are using it a lot more, is the I'll call him, I'll call him the simple person and the hooded figure, and then the over optimizer in in the middle, where I I guess maybe the actual title for is like the midwit bell curve, something like that, where uh usually it's you can just do things on one side, you can just do things on the other side, and in the middle is like, I need to do these seven things and I need to wait for the right time, and it's all this, all this stuff, right? And my only goal in life is to be on either of the other sides. I don't care, like it might be the simple side, I'm fine with that, you know. Like I just want to be uh and and most of of what I talk about with clients, actually, the people that I try to help are people who are overthinkers that tend to just overanalyze, overthink, uh, and sometimes overoptimize a lot of different areas of of their lives when when really what they need is to uh paradoxically, they need to set up a system where they think less in interactions. Uh, thinking less, especially thinking less about yourself in an interaction, is gonna is gonna make it way better. One of the worst things, and and probably listeners will uh catch themselves in this. If you do, that's fine. Um, if you've ever caught yourself giving yourself a sort of a report card or grades of how an interaction is going while you're in the interaction, guess what? You're gonna have a real bad time. And so you just don't need to do it. Um what's much better is really externalizing, right? And thinking, well, how can I be a good listener? How can I focus on asking questions from the other person and getting to know them a little bit better? That's gonna set the right frame, um, which is much better than just thinking, like, oh, I wonder what they think about me, or whatever. Like, no, you're gonna have a terrible time. Uh the joke I use with my clients is simply that everyone who's giving themselves a evaluation in an interaction, no one's thinking to themselves, I'm doing so great, my goodness. You know, they're just not thinking that. They're they're thinking like, oh, you're so stupid, or or you know, the inner jerk that I talk about the book is showing up and and and whispering things to them that they would never allow anyone else to whisper to them. And uh it's a it's a it can be it can be a real problem.

SPEAKER_03 40:34

Yeah. Um, that inner critic is definitely alive inside of me. Um, it uh constantly nags at me, and I've uh had an easier time over the years as I just kind of started to say, go away, you know, get out of here. Um, because uh the the thing for me is um I I keep thinking that other people um are thinking about um my interactions with them all the time. It's me that's thinking about them all the time. The other person's moved on, they're they're done, you know. And so um going back and correcting the interaction, that's not the right idea because you're only gonna make it worse if you try to correct it and say, Oh, I didn't really mean that, you know, or whatever. That might have sounded weird. I you know, don't don't try to correct it, just make sure the next interaction's better. Um but that's that's kind of the thing is that um people move on so quickly and they forget so quickly, and they're also so self-absorbed anyway, that they're not thinking about you. Sorry, they're just not, you know.

SPEAKER_01 41:44

So and uh yeah, a couple of points on that actually is uh one is I I've asked this question to every client. Can you tell me about a time when you observe someone being awkward and can can you describe it to me in detail? And guess what? Only once have I ever had anyone be able to even answer it. Everyone else is like, uh I don't know, you know. To the one person that that had something, I asked them, Well, what did you think about that person? What did you feel? And they're like, Well, I really just felt empathy because I was like, you know, anyone could could push the door when it's really a poll, you know, it could have it could have happened to me, like could have happened to anyone, right? So that's point one. Point two is um, can I walk you through the movie poster reframe? Yeah, so the I I don't I I'm almost certain this is not in the book. So this is this is a persuasion club exclusive exclusive. Awesome. So I call it the movie poster reframe, and it goes like this picture yourself walking past uh uh wall at the front of a movie theater. You've got all these different movie posters, and the first one you come across is your movie poster, right? It and in the in the style of a lot of movie posters, you know, it's got the floating heads and maybe a little bit of action in there, whatever it is. Guess who the biggest head is on the movie poster? It's you because it's your movie, right? Now, if you have a spouse or a significant other, they they might be on there too, probably a little smaller head, right? Uh your buddies might be towards the bottom. Maybe, maybe even a coworker or two might even be on there. Um there might be some names at the bottom. You know, people, people that you you know that aren't super close, but you know, they're there. Um, so that's your movie poster. You walk a little further and say it's your significant other's movie poster. Well, now the biggest head is that person. Your head is now a little smaller, and uh, and all of their friends, and maybe some of your mutual friends are on there too, uh and their different names at the bottom. Okay, well, you walk a little further, you get to a really good friend's movie poster. You you look at the biggest head, well, it's your friend. Uh the second biggest head, it's their spouse. Uh their kids are at the bottom. Uh you might be on there, maybe, but you might be one of the names at the bottom. And then you go a little further and you just happen upon someone that you've met but you know you're not close to or anything like that. You scan, you scan all over it. You're not on that movie poster. And you're not on most people's movie posters. And this is good news actually because they're not most people aren't on your movie poster either. And so I like that because it kind of reminds me that we are the most important person in our own movie and everyone is that way to varying degrees. And it's freeing because if I do mess up, which if you have more interactions, your total number of awkward moments is probably going to increase but your percentage of awkward moments is going to decrease because your skills get better. So this is a very freeing thing because it frees you up to try and it frees you up from the uh expectations of others and the opinions of others. So any any thoughts? How do you guys like the Persuasion Club exclusive there?

SPEAKER_03 44:52

I think it's actually have to use that one um in a clip video if you wouldn't mind Jeff.

SPEAKER_02 45:01

Yeah yeah do it yeah um perfect um you know we we do that all the time we we're always thinking about what uh other people um are thinking of us and they're the the movies that they're watching are completely different movies than than that we're even uh watching so makes perfect sense um hey well we have uh a little bit of time left here and I thought maybe we would try to play a little bit of our game if you wouldn't mind uh playing along with us Jeff let's do it um yeah um Steven I'm gonna give you control here in a minute but I'll start us off let me go ahead and whip us over here to this screen oops come on we know you want to do you have the link um to control the game there uh yes I do I've got it up and running uh do you uh oh screen went black but I I have the game pulled up yeah let me see if I can get it to go here it it's not behaving um for me at the moment strangely it'll get there it might not get there if it won't get there I I still have questions for Jeff so if you can't run the audio only version of the game yeah yeah who wants to be a blindfold only yeah who wants to be blindfolded why don't you go ahead and ask your question and I'll get it working um here Steven because I can do that while you're talking with Jeff so let me go back to this uh other screen here one of these and you you could ask your question yeah uh uh what when it comes to encouraging someone to continue trying things that they may be having a bad experience at is there you know and not to dive too deep into you know getting some free uh coaching uh that you may usually not get you know what dive in it's it's cool dive in yeah because it for me uh I've I usually operate with the fact that as long as my intentions are good I can pretty much do anything guilt guilt free because I really mean the best but and that help that's helped me through a lot of failures because I I do experience failure but uh I've always kind of been a person that uh believes in like the fail forward kind of for the most part uh mentality but what what are what what is something core that you encourage people who do continue to fail and maybe aren't seeing the uh improvement as quickly as the the lack of improvement is also discouraging. So is there something that you usually kind of give to people that are experiencing that?

SPEAKER_01 47:47

Well I would actually take take a step back and think think about it in in terms of are you are you playing a game that you can that you can win consistently like ideally that you can win every single day. That's a much better game to play than a a game in which you can you only feel like you win at some point in the future because you've achieved X, Y, and Z, right? Um the I think uh I may may give this example in the book where like say your goal is to make a friend. It's like okay well you know that's a good goal. That's a fine goal. But here's the thing you will be in a losing state until you actually make that friend. If you're having conversations every single day you're gonna feel like you're in a a winning state. And actually now that I'm thinking about it I think actually one of the items on the 20 lessons that took me 20 years to learn has the perfect thing. Number 17, I'll read this to you. Focusing on outcomes keeps you stuck in a losing state because you only win when you get the result. Focusing on effort keeps you in a winning state because you win every time you put in effort and so I think about that a lot in just in terms of um whenever you're improving something is it is it likely that at some point along the line you might encounter some sort of plateau. Yeah I mean I mean that's absolutely possible. I w if if I've set up the system correctly then every day I'm taking an action that I can be proud of that I like that makes me feel good. And if I string enough of those together in my opinion at least you you may not even notice the plateaus even though they may they may happen uh because you're focusing on something a little bit smaller than what is my overall trajectory you know what's my overall trajectory uh it's more of hey I know I'm doing something every single day that is sort of upstream from the result that I want. And then over time the result will take care of itself. But the difference and I'll get your opinion on this the difference is you'll feel like you're winning the entire time instead of only feeling like you're winning once at the end. Any any uh comment or uh feedback there?

SPEAKER_02 50:04

I like it. I I feel like um like you said focusing on outcomes keeps you stuck focusing on the effort is uh keeps you winning uh I do like that a lot I I feel like the fact that people give up on things is sometimes really sad to see well not sometimes most times it's really hard to see people give up on something that they had a bad experience or a slightly bad experience when it's like you could just keep trying and eventually like you will overcome that or you will get to where I think you think you should be or you want to be that totally resonates I really like that a lot. So that's a good uh good lesson.

SPEAKER_03 50:42

Yeah thank you yeah looks like all right as you can see we've got the screen working here um so we'll go ahead and uh pretend like we're uh running a game show here always wanted to be on the game actually be the host if you want and ask the questions and we'll uh Steven and I have fun actually trying to answer them um so we we don't have the answers in front of us we don't know so um let's just see what the system gives us um it may work it may not hey all right okay so the scenario is you walk into a meeting and your brain starts narrating every your every flaw which roadmap lesson applies first so we have leave immediately to protect your brain read those if you want Steven yeah uh memorize a a monologue in the bathroom C wait until you feel zero anxiety or D shift attention outward the the room has cues if you look oh my goodness um well I think that um C is not a good answer B is not a good answer um leaving immediately to protect your brand uh you gotta protect your brand right yeah um yeah uh so one second I'll be right back one sec okay you're on so you're on the hot seating to think hmm shifting attention outward yeah he just left how can you do that maybe he's phoning a friend you don't show man you don't do that I'm a millionaire nope nope uh sorry we just uh split you know uh the the door knocked and I had to dishon a friend asking that's what he's doing that's all right Steven all right I need I need your final answers laughing we're giving you a bad time I'm thinking I'm thinking D is that what you're thinking Kevin that is correct I am thinking D all right all right nice yeah okay next question why why do interactions improve when attention is focused outward rather than inward a inward focus makes you telepathic b outward focus means never preparing C inward focus is always superior D you pick up cues topics and energy instead of grading yourself uh outward focus means never preparing I I'm not I I'm not sure about that Stephen let's talk this through am I am I glitching A look like a possible answer in the sense that what you're not telling I can hear you okay can you hear me now now I can I think there was some lag there.

SPEAKER_01 53:28

Okay now I can yeah okay um so I'm I'm saying that telepathy is kind of like not an option so a is not an option how's that work for you Steven yeah I I don't believe in no telepath telepathic is is uh not gonna work yeah okay just making sure um yeah b outward focus means never preparing um I think that that's if you do have an outward focus then you probably uh might be that that could be a potential choice um why do interactions improve when attention is focused outward rather than inward um no I don't like that inward focus is always superior D we were talking earlier about being inside of your head during an interaction is really bad because no one's ever sitting there thinking how good you're doing so it rather than focusing on the inside of what you're thinking I do I I'm feeling D because you're picking up on what's going on in the conversation rather than spending all the time thinking about how bad you're doing that's kind of where I let's do it all right you lock it in and that is correct lock it in all right awesome all right next which is an example of internal focus during a conversation a did I sound weird just now B what follow-up fits what he just said C what is she enthusiastic about D what detail in the room could I talk about again the question is what is an example of internal focus during a conversation all right I I know the answer but you know the answer I know immediately immediately my the A just was like oh yeah for sure so in my head I was just thinking A for sure that's what do you think Kevin I'm thinking a yeah that's lock it in that's uh yeah lock it in let's do it that is correct yes awesome hey we're nailing this one are we up to now Steven uh let's see how much money we've made so far in this game i i advanced too we'll we'll catch it in the next I'll do it next I'll do it next next question why is being genuinely interested in others often more valuable than trying to be interesting a being interesting means talking only about yourself b interest only works on extroverts c interest is passive and requires no skill d people feel seen which builds connection faster than performing I'd say D.

SPEAKER_02 56:07

Yeah I mean yeah I would I I agree with D in in my because in my head a being interesting means talking only about yourself I'm like I I don't know if I excuse me agree with that sentence and I was getting stuck on it so yeah but I do think that D D seems to make the most sense uh when we're talking for gen for being genuinely interested yeah yeah yeah all right lock it in let's see what happens that is correct all right okay let's look at the ladder before we go too far yeah and I I need to be uh kind to our guest here do you have time for this Jeff or do you need to get going?

SPEAKER_01 56:45

I got time okay cool all right uh let's go ahead and get that next question then we're on question five Persuasion Club trap you try to dazzle the room with clever monologues jeff wrote Jeff's roadmap would say a talk louder until applause happens I like that one that's pretty good b prepare 17 TED talks in advance c never let anyone else speak or d ask better questions and get interested dazzle is optional this one's kind of an easy one um I think we're gonna me I would I would choose D.

SPEAKER_03 57:20

Yeah what about you Steve?

SPEAKER_02 57:21

Feeling D I'm feeling D.

SPEAKER_01 57:23

I don't agree with any of the others you're feeling D yeah let's lock it in that is correct green woo okay all right okay hey hey this is good this is good all right next what does it mean that you only control 50% of a conversation oh I know this one I just listened to it like two hours ago you should control 100% by dominating B conversations are entirely random C you own your words and energy the other person owns theirs or D you control every outcome if you try hard enough oh you know D actually is kind of a good answer I don't know if that only or not but it it seems like a good answer.

SPEAKER_03 58:10

If only and you know A is A is looking pretty good too um you know but I I'm gonna Steven I need to give you a chance let's let's hear your answer here.

SPEAKER_02 58:22

I'm going with C because you you only own your own words and the other person owns theirs that's how I approach a lot of conversations or like uh even like if you had a partner in school that you're working with and the two of you own part of an essay or something it's like yeah I can only own my pot my contribution. Yep. Yeah let's do it let's finally answer that bad boy.

SPEAKER_03 58:47

All right yeah that is correct all right there we go now um well I was gonna make some kind of a comment along the but now I already forgot what it was.

SPEAKER_01 58:57

Go ahead and continue how can accepting the 50% rule improve conversations a it reduces over over control and frees you to contribute your half well B it proves preparation is useless. C it requires scripts for both halves D it means you should blame the other person for everything.

SPEAKER_03 59:22

Yeah it's perfect that's what you should do. So what I was gonna say and it kind of really goes along with this is that in my opinion and if you know that you only control 50% of the conversation then that means you have to make your 50% count.

SPEAKER_02 59:36

So um let's see um it reduces over control frees you to contribute to your half well that sounds good yeah um I I like that and I'm gonna say that's probably it yeah let's lock it in all right let's do it and then uh one sec I think my my side of the world is lagging here I think this uh the game is making my whole world get a little slow yeah I think I'm about five seconds behind you guys I'm sorry um if you need uh two you can refresh the browser and it helps you a little bit too oh oh but don't refresh your stream but I can't okay go ahead but I'm gonna reveal it it says that we're right there so woo yeah can I'll I'll read the next question maybe and I'll let Jeff and Kevin do the answering. So I'll I'll do all the narration for this next one and then I can just not talk because I think I'm way behind. Uh okay so how can treating someone like a friend help create friendship? We have a it removes the need for follow-up b warmth and familiarity signal that closeness is possible C it means oversharing secrets on day one always and D it guarantees that they will never reject you.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:56

As the author I have uh hidden insight and superpowers and so I'm gonna I'm gonna let Kevin give his option and then I'll I'll chime in.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:06

Okay. Well and I see that we're at question eight so and I I feel like I know the answer but let's make sure that on the next one that we use some of those lifelines to get the audience interaction if we can um how can treating someone like a friend help create friendship? Um I don't think it's a because um removing the need for follow-up doesn't seem like something that you would do with a friend. B warmth and familiarity signal that closeness is possible. That seems kind of nice and I would probably say that that would be a good contender. C, it means oversharing secrets on day one always ain't gonna do that. And D, it guarantees they will never reject you well nothing is ever a guarantee. So uh B is my final answer.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:53

I like it. I concur.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:55

All right and then maybe uh well after the it lets me uh click these things I can go back to helping helping converse the answers here but that does I mean if the author says it's correct I think we're turning green here. There we go.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:10

We are there it is oh my gosh my computer is like yeah I don't know what's happening but I'm being harvested something mining on my on my build here hang on a second here and see if I can take over control of the game oh shit it's uh we only have two questions left I think I think I can make it you want to see if we can just make it through let's power through all right yeah I'll try not to talk about you too much okay but we're gonna use those lifelines by golly um go ahead okay I'll let Jeff if you want to go ahead and read I'll I'll join back on trying to answer.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:48

What is a risk of treating someone like a friend too quickly a you may misread readiness and move faster than they want B you will definitely become best friends instantly C there are no risks only rewards or D friendship becomes legally binding. That'd be crazy.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:09

All right well let's go ahead and um ask the audience on this one then shall we hey that is a good one let's I will arm the poll for 90 seconds uh we have a uh a website you can go to vote.persuasion.club you can put in your vote and uh see but you have to visit that site on a new window if you go away from this current one and I'll start the countdown now. For those of you listening vote dotpersuasion.club let's see who's gonna how many people are going to give us their input we might get in trouble for using this music but we'll we'll fix anyone can vote but not everyone can use this music we'll see we found that using a little bit more time lets people load the website and get their vote in so hopefully that's happening we got one vote great yes 30 more sec well I guess I'm way behind 20 more seconds.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:42

You're not that far behind okay we're almost there we're gonna see the results here hey we got a vote for D friendship becomes legally binding hmm someone a hundred percent of the audience thinks that according to the votes interesting yeah right you know they must be right what did Scott say about the 25% I'm wondering if that might be a a 25% or um no we're not going with that one I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:35

But I do I do feel like A seems to make the most sense 'cause if you start viewing and treating them like a friend before that's apparent or clear in the relationship, uh definitely can uh get on people's awkward or weird side really quick uh for moving too fast.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:53

So I can care.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:55

That's kinda how I'm feeling totally agreed by All right let's let's lock it in. It's It's doing it. It's getting there. The music has told us. Music is a clue. I cued the music ahead of the reveal. That's why my point is. I've clicked the button. I've clicked the button. It's taken its time. So we're but hey, we're we're at the last question here. Yeah. And uh there we go. It did it. Yeah. But we are uh we're going to see this. Let's do this. We're almost rich.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:25

Yeah, we're almost rich here. Why does focusing exclusively on outcomes create a losing mindset? A outcomes are always immediate. B outcomes are the only thing that matter. C effort is irrelevant to growth, or D, you cannot fully control outcomes, so you set yourself up to fail.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:49

Would you like to use a 50-50, Kevin? Exclusively. Well, yeah. I mean it's it's there, right? Might as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:57

Let's use the 50-50 and get rid of half that, half of that. So there we go. So okay, so it's either B or D. Uh, and I I do not agree with B. So I I have to go D.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:08

I do not either.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:09

I can go. I'm with you. All right. Wow. Lock it in. Lock it in. It's thinking. It's still thinking. It's revealing. The reveal is almost here. It's the final question. So here we go.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:24

Uh this is too funny. There we go. There it is.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:32

All right. One dollar. We earned a whole dollar. Congratulations. I've ever earned. Yeah. Yeah. Those questions. I was just good stuff, though.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:46

I had a lot of fun. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:47

Yeah. For having read the book and talking to the author, those questions really just uh were a breeze. So that was that felt good. I feel like I'm not sweating too hard, thinking too hard. I like it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:03

That worked out pretty well. Sometimes with the technology, um, the things don't always work out the way they would hope. But tonight it wasn't so bad. And uh we really appreciate you coming on the show. Um, we're gonna go ahead and play off um here in the new and after show, for which you are very welcome to hang out with us, Jeff. In fact, we hope you do. Um, and then uh we just want to say thanks for uh everybody for showing up and uh joining us tonight. Again, with us tonight is best-selling author Jeff Callahan of Confidence Maxing. You can get your copy on Amazon today. Uh, we'll be back next week, um, Sunday night at six o'clock. We hope you'll join us then. Uh until that time, thanks for hanging out with us.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:48

Thank you so much. Thanks for being on the show, Jeff. Absolutely. Not a beer. Uh root beer.